D&D (2024) Hunter's Mark, Hex, and the illusive balance

[Xeviat]

Well you wouldn't

Your versions are nerfs, sorry. I would never cast them. Bonus action + spell slot for 1d6 damage and that's it? Monsters die too fast; you'll never get value out of this.

If you think they're overpowered, limiting to 1/round is fine. That's still a big nerf but they might warrant it. Removing concentration - even in addition to 1/round limit - is a buff IMO.

Well you wouldn't cast it on a mook. At 2 hits it's only slightly behind divine smite, at 3 hits it's slightly ahead. If you could switch it between targets in multiple encounters, it would beat smite real fast. It lasting for 1 minute but being switchable would be balanced in combat, but not useful for the tracking feature.

But then you say removing concentration with a 1/round limit is a buff, and that's what I'm suggesting. I'm not seeing the disconnect here.

 

[Xeviat]

I think that you could increase the damage die size, since it can’t switch targets.

Or give a juicier secondary benefit like crit on 19 or even just “know all resistences immunities and vulnerabilities” for HM, and Hex could also deals damage when the target fails a saving throw.

I did? 2d6 at 3rd level spell, 3d6 at 5th level spell.

Improved crit on Hunter's Mark would be fitting and fun!

 

[Xeviat]

Divine Favor at 1d4 per hit is weak enough to not require Concentration, but then Hunter's Mark at 1d6 per hit is too powerful to stack with other damage Concentration spells. There's nothing contradictory here but 1 extra damage per hit seems like an awfully small delta to confidently draw the line between too weak / too powerful.

Maybe a good homebrew modification of Hunter's Mark would be to allow the Ranger to choose when they cast the spell, between either 1d6 damage with Concentration or 1d4 damage but no Concentration. I kind of like that idea but I dunno

It's the duration difference that scares them away. Hmmm, I wonder if 1d4 at 1st, 1d6 at 2nd, 1d8 at 3rd, 1d10 at 4th, and 1d12 at 5th would work... But conjure minor elementals is way more.

 

[Xeviat]

I think that you could increase the damage die size, since it can’t switch targets.

Or give a juicier secondary benefit like crit on 19 or even just “know all resistences immunities and vulnerabilities” for HM, and Hex could also deals damage when the target fails a saving throw.

I'm really feeling like people didn't read my original post? I did increase the die size. Or are you saying beyond 1d6>2d6>3d6? As I showed in my first post, those dice line up with Smite's damage, with a balance point between 2 and 3 hits.

My issue with the existing Hex and Hunter's Mark is that if someone keeps the concentration up long enough (and I ran a level 5 to 13 game that had a warlock who only used her spells for hex, blink, counter spell, and the occasional hellish rebuke). She regularly kept her hex up for multiple encounters, so it was doing considerably more damage than an Eldritch smite would have.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm really feeling like people didn't read my original post? I did increase the die size. Or are you saying beyond 1d6>2d6>3d6? As I showed in my first post, those dice line up with Smite's damage, with a balance point between 2 and 3 hits.

My issue with the existing Hex and Hunter's Mark is that if someone keeps the concentration up long enough (and I ran a level 5 to 13 game that had a warlock who only used her spells for hex, blink, counter spell, and the occasional hellish rebuke). She regularly kept her hex up for multiple encounters, so it was doing considerably more damage than an Eldritch smite would have.

I said die size, not number of dice.

 

[Selas]

Well you wouldn't

Well you wouldn't cast it on a mook. At 2 hits it's only slightly behind divine smite, at 3 hits it's slightly ahead. If you could switch it between targets in multiple encounters, it would beat smite real fast. It lasting for 1 minute but being switchable would be balanced in combat, but not useful for the tracking feature.

But then you say removing concentration with a 1/round limit is a buff, and that's what I'm suggesting. I'm not seeing the disconnect here.

There's a disconnect: the spell becomes nearly useless in combat because you can only use it against one target and you're done. What player's want is the flexibility to have HM/Hex in combat while casting another concentration spell; that's where the 1-minute alteration becomes a buff--whether it's a once per turn with multiple die, or per attack with one die.

 

[Xeviat]

There's a disconnect: the spell becomes nearly useless in combat because you can only use it against one target and you're done. What player's want is the flexibility to have HM/Hex in combat while casting another concentration spell; that's where the 1-minute alteration becomes a buff--whether it's a once per turn with multiple die, or per attack with one die.

But when you use divine smite in combat, it's one target and it's done, except hex and Hunter's Mark have the added utility of skill penalty or skill bonuses if that's called for. There is a disconnect, I'm not seeing it.

A 1 minute duration would be useless out of combat. I suppose making a separate utility spell would be the solution.

Are you saying the inability to switch targets would ruin the spell? What if there was a benny when the target is defeated (like 4E warlocks getting their pact boon when a cursed target dies)?

 

[Horwath]

Xeviat, I think if you made it a non-concentration non-spell class feature, then what you are proposing would make more sense. With the scaling by class level, not character level.

I think that SW5E did it best with their version of the "ranger"

Star Wars 5e

www.sw5e.com

RANGER’S QUARRY​

Scout: 1st, 5th, 9th, and 17th level
You learn how to effectively read and track your prey. Once on each of your turns, you can choose a creature you can see within 120 feet and mark it as your quarry (no action required). For the next hour, you gain the following benefits:

• Once per turn, when you hit the target with a weapon attack, you can deal 1d4 additional damage to it of the same type as the weapon’s damage. This die changes as you gain scout levels, as shown in the Ranger’s Quarry column of the scout table.
• You have advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check you make to find it while it’s on the same planet as you.

You can only have one creature marked in this way at a time. Beginning at 5th level, you can use your reaction to mark a creature when it enters your line of sight, provided it is within range of your Ranger’s Quarry.

The duration increases to 8 hours at 9th level and 24 hours at 17th level.

damage is increased to d6,d8,d10 and d12 at levels 5,9,13 and 17.
It's a poor's man sneak attack with tracking bonuses.


It gives it that rangers focus on tracking that everyone wants.

 

[Selas]

But when you use divine smite in combat, it's one target and it's done, except hex and Hunter's Mark have the added utility of skill penalty or skill bonuses if that's called for. There is a disconnect, I'm not seeing it.

A 1 minute duration would be useless out of combat. I suppose making a separate utility spell would be the solution.

Are you saying the inability to switch targets would ruin the spell? What if there was a benny when the target is defeated (like 4E warlocks getting their pact boon when a cursed target dies)?

Yes, otherwise Bestow Curse is better since you have many more options with it and it's only hindered by being a touch spell.

Look at Goolock, Draconic Sorc and Fey Wanderer; all three have the option (keyword: optional) to make their summon spells non-concentration for 1-minute when casting it.

 

[evilbob]

But when you use divine smite in combat, it's one target and it's done, except hex and Hunter's Mark have the added utility of skill penalty or skill bonuses if that's called for. There is a disconnect, I'm not seeing it.

Divine Smite is 2d8 radiant for a 1st level spell slot that cannot be wasted. That's much better than 1d6 necrotic. The rider is almost negligible on Hex, since it doesn't affect saves.

And yes: the primary benefit of the spell is constantly being able to switch targets for a bonus action. Targets often die quickly in 5.5 - it's hard to get more than 2 uses of a single-target spell on most enemies. Solos are an exception.

Replying to your earlier comment: sorry, what I meant was: removing concentration from the spell is so much of a buff that anything else you do to reign it in isn't going to be enough to offset that. Unless you make it useless, like removing the ability to switch targets. My opinion is that this will be too fine of a needle to thread (overpowered vs. useless) so I'd leave concentration alone.

If your concern is the duration, the simplest solution would be to not allow it to be upcast. You could probably even limit it to 10 minutes.

Sidebar: Ranger's Quarry is way better than Hunter's Mark, and HM is already a little overpowered IMO. That's no action or spell slot: you just have extra damage all the time, forever. That's like the Paladin level 11 feature that just adds 1d8 radiant to all weapon attacks.