Hybrid D&D: Combining editions (especially 3E and 4E)

[Mercurius]

Anyone hybridize editions? I'm particularly curious about attempts to combine the best of both 3E and 4E (or Pathfinder and 4E, if you prefer). Anyone season this mixture with Trailblazer or Fantasy Craft, perhaps a strong dose of OD&D and dashes of AD&D and BECMI?

Tell me about your hybrid game.

(I ask, of course, because this is a project of mine).

 

[Voadam]

I like 3.5 as my base. I've run and played a ton of it and have tons of modules and monster books for it.

I like a lot of pathfinder, particularly spell revisions redoing dispel magic, save or dies to damage, save or suck to hold person style save each round. I like a bunch of the class revisions including at will cantrips and increased sneak attack. I like the HD bumps for classes. I like the PF beta 1st level hp bump.

I like Trailbazer's attack bonus for rogues and monks and sneak attack working for everybody.

I like 4e's healing surges a lot for reducing the need for magical healing. It has replaced reserve points from UA/IH in my games.

I like PF and TB skills, an elegant improvement over 3e IMO, but I like 4e's greater consolidation even more and the less fiddly 1/2 improvement and trained/untrained distinction.

I like 4e style monster roles.

I like 4e style class features and powers as options and let them be taken as feats.

I like rangers as 4e strikers and make their favored enemy a straight damage bonus against everybody.

I like Unearthed Arcana spontaneous divine casters and a modified version of recharge magic.

I like multiclass spellcasting to stack spell slots and spells known as done in Arcana Evolved. I also give caster level = character level.

I increase feat acquisition to every level, going past both PF and 4e.

The 4e weapons, armor, and action points seem real appealing and I might eventually adopt those as well. I'm still going through the 4e PH and just got to the combat section, from the quickstart it looked a little more elegant than many 3e counterparts and I might consider adopting specific elements or whole hog.

 

[Lanefan]

I'd be interested in hearing (but not in trying, as I currently don't play or run either system) what would happen if you started with 3e (or 3.5, or PF, whatever) core rules, and did these:

REMOVE:
- all temporary buff effects both to offense and defense
- most AoO's
- magic item creation by PCs
- polymorph
- all expansions or splatbooks
- reduce frequency of monsters with DR and of items that give it
- reduce item-type vs. monster-type requirements (so a fighter doesn't need a golf bag for his weapons)

ADD:
- marked and bloodied as conditions (as 4e)
- casting times for spells during which they can be interrupted (as 1e)
- polymorph (as 1e)
- damaging or 5-sense illusions (as 1e)
- some movement effects (as 4e but not as many)
- simultaneous actions allowed (as 1e, or by houserule)
- some of the magic item ideas from all other editions
- legacy items that develop with their owner (as 4e? or was it late 3e?)

CHANGE:
- initiative re-roll each round (so you can't plan your actions based on turn order)
- frequency and type of magic items found and-or buyable (fewer basic +x's, much less magic armour, more oddball stuff)

Not much of a start, but it's something...

Lanefan

 

[Wik]

It's funny, I did this last session! I was running a large fight where only one PC was present. To keep the rest of the group involved, I gave each one of them a minion to control, with a sub-goal that was not necessarily related to the fight, and went at it. The PC had to fight one actual monster, a bunch of minions (like, a dozen of them, at least), and protect an NPC, while the minions ran around and beat on each other.

I threw in some Savage Worlds, though, because it handles large scale fights more believably, using a very simplified system when a minion attacked another minion... basically, any time the PC wasn't involved, I used Savage Worlds. And it worked pretty well... well enough that I'm seriously considering doing something like this coming up.

I also have this plan to take 4e and change some of the inherent beliefs of the system to better mesh with 2nd edition - particularly the scale of PCs vs. monsters (ideally, so that 1st level PCs can hit an ogre, but it's still going to be a tough fight, while goblins are still dangerous to 8th level PCs).

 

[amnuxoll]

I am also working on creating a hybrid like this. I think there are a lot of folks out there that want something like it. The problem is that I don't think you can do it easily. It's not somewhere where a few house rules works. There are too many changes.

The other issue is "compatibility." So many d20 systems make a big deal about being compatible with D&D 3.5 when really:
a) they aren't compatible
b) in their effort to appear so they've missed the opportunity to fix some fundamental problems
I've decided I'd rather have it 100% right (or as close to it as I can get) than only 70% right but "compatible." Truthfully, a good hybrid system will have enough of 3.5e and 4e in it that you can actually use material from both systems. That's what I'm aiming for though I seem to be leaning more toward 3.5e than 4e.


The high level overview of what I'm doing:
1. Make combat faster and simpler like 4e without being boring and predictable like 4e. In particular, I've removed most of the temporary modifiers and iterative attacks that bog down the system and replaced it with another mechanic that reminiscent of Iron Heroes tokens...but not so complex. You don't have to have an eidetic memory to play this game like you do with 3.5e. Also, you don't have to have the highest initiative to win battles at high level.
2. Fixed all the unbalances in 3.5e rules that have turned up. Rebalanced everything. Remember that guy with the lance using full power attack on a flying mount and dealing 150+ damage on one hit? Yeah, that's gotta go.
3. Borrowed many elegant nuggets from 4e (revised opportunity attack rules, some conditions, stances, effects with a duration of "encounter", sharing actions with your animal companion, etc.)
4. Ignored the not-so-elegant nuggets from 4e (bizarre alignment system, over-simplified skill system, boring magic items, dissatisfying multiclass mechanic, etc.)
5. Eliminated the "15 minute work day" in a manner that I think is even neater than how Trailblazer did it.
6. I'm still in the process of completely overhauling the spell system to fix about eight different serious problems and many more minor ones. A sampling of these:
a. spells that make the spellcaster a better fighter than...the fighter or a better rogue than..the rogue.
b. the desperate need to metagame every combat so you can be "buffed" before it starts
c. divinations
d. polymorph (using Pathfinder's solution here)
7. Whether you are a martial PC or a spellcaster you get to be cool but not with the homogeneous, "silo" approach that 4e uses.
8. Fixed the magic item "Christmas tree" problem
9. Review existing d20 systems for revisions that people love and incorporate them if they fit. I want good ideas but I don't want to make a Frankenstein system.

:AMN:

 

[amnuxoll]

With respect to Lanefan's wish list here's where I stand:

REMOVE:
- all temporary buff effects both to offense and defense

Done. I'm particularly pleased with my approach to this.

- most AoO's

Done.

- magic item creation by PCs

I left it in with a warning not to use it. Too many people like this.

- polymorph

Done but my solution isn't what you proposed.

- all expansions or splatbooks

I think this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There is good content here. Since it's not d20 licensed I can't touch it but I tried to keep it in mind so it would still be usable with the new system.

- reduce frequency of monsters with DR and of items that give it

I think you have to either remove it altogether or keep it. I considered the former but couldn't come up with a good alternative. So, I went with the latter but I agree it's not often a fun mechanic. FWIW, I got rid of spell resistance. Blech.

- reduce item-type vs. monster-type requirements (so a fighter doesn't need a golf bag for his weapons)

Oh, yes. That needs to go. I haven't gotten to it yet tho.

ADD:
- marked and bloodied as conditions (as 4e)

Yes. My "mark" is a bit less mechanical than 4e though. It's more like the Knight class from D&D3.5's PHB3.

- casting times for spells during which they can be interrupted (as 1e)

I've gone the opposite on this and eliminated concentration checks entirely. I'm looking to make combat interesting and ultimately interrupting spells was rarely a worthwhile victory.

- polymorph (as 1e)

I went with Pathfinder's approach here with a little Trailblazer thrown in.

- damaging or 5-sense illusions (as 1e)

I don't recall what this is?

- some movement effects (as 4e but not as many)

I did this.

- simultaneous actions allowed (as 1e, or by houserule)

I don't think this is necessary with the "Ready" action. I don't miss this mechanic.

- some of the magic item ideas from all other editions

I haven't done this but it's a fine idea.

- legacy items that develop with their owner (as 4e? or was it late 3e?)

Also a fine idea I've left undone.

CHANGE:
- initiative re-roll each round (so you can't plan your actions based on turn order)

This was one of the things I most hated about 2e. So, it's not for my system.

- frequency and type of magic items found and-or buyable (fewer basic +x's, much less magic armour, more oddball stuff)

I have taken steps in this direction.

 

[delericho]

I intend to bring several elements of 4e into my SWSE campaign when it resumes (Skill Challenges are already there; also much of the healing rules).

I also have this vague concept of writing my own version of D&D, stealing all sorts of bits from all the various editions, adding some of my own ideas, and mixing the whole lot up. This sounds like a lot of work, though, so I doubt it will ever go beyond the 'idea' stage.

 

[Starfox]

Making 4E-style monsters for use with 3E would make me a convert.

 

[Tuft]

Making 4E-style monsters for use with 3E would make me a convert.

Seen this thread?
http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...nster-advancement-class-levels-prep-time.html
Considering the freedoms some of those DMs take when making monsters...

 

[dm4hire]

I started thinking about this last week and tonight I started searching on Google with no real luck. Then just as I am about to give up for the night I decided to check back through the threads here on enWorld and I find it sitting right at the top, figures.

I've been thinking of making more of a classless system, but might change that approach as I'm still debating it. Here's my general ideas so far:

WotC’s d20 Cthulhu had only two options for character design, an offensive or defensive character. Green Ronin’s True20 has three base classes. I like the general concept of simplification, but allowing for diversity and complexity at higher levels.

4e introduced defenses in place of saving throws. I really like that but am wondering if it might not be streamlined a little more.

Several new games introduce reduced skill lists. I’m all for that. However following the first point I like a concept from d20 Cthulhu which was that the player chooses what skills are class skills for the character. I prefer Pathfinder’s skill advancement.

Green Ronin’s True20 gets rid of traditional ability scores by making the modifier the actual score. So instead of having 18 intelligence with a +4 modifier you’d just have a 4 intelligence, simple and quick. They also use a point buy with only six points to purchase with between the six abilities. I checked the ability average from the 4e PHB where it lists the table for possible point buy stats. The average is 6.4 so Green Ronin is pretty much on target.

I want to balance the races a bit more by converting certain abilities into feats and other aspects racial talents similar to what was found in d20 Modern and Star Wars. I also like Pathfinder’s trait system.

I like action points. Trailblazer offers a unique twist to action points I like. I also like how they are used in Star Wars and d20 modern, as well as a couple of other games.

4e introduced fixed hit points which I really like, but think it needs to be a little more diverse. I like second wind, but think it can be improved. Trailblazer does it a little differently which is a good start. The goal of second wind is to eliminate the 10-15 minute adventure day. Another aspect introduced by Trailblazer is that the rest resets almost everything as if a whole day had transpired, leaving only certain things to reset with actual extended rest.

At will abilities should also be in the game. However I don’t like dailies, at least how they are designed. I want a system more along the lines of traditional D&D or Pathfinder. I also like the concept of magic being universal with players choosing to focus in how they use it. Trailblazer has an interesting approach to magic that might work if only as a guideline.

Green Ronin’s Dragon Age RPG as well as free online RPGs such as Microlite20 and Dungeonslayers are designed with old school feel, aiming for simplicity and quickness of play. Castles & Crusades also tries to do this. I want to design the game so that character design is a small selection of choices and you’re done.

Now that I have mentioned some of my beginning design thoughts here’s a general look at how it might come into play designing a character.

Step 1 Decide on character concept
Step 2 Determine abilities
Step 3 Pick characters progression: either defensive or offensive may changed every level
Step 4 Pick discipline: martial, specialist, or supernatural
Step 5 Determine initial talents, traits and feats by:
Pick traits: background, race, social status, and so on
Pick talents: determined by current discipline
Picking feats
Step 6 Purchase Equipment
Step 7 Calculate defenses, initiative, and speed
Step 8 Finish character information, such as name, family information, etc

Well that’s the general start to what I’ve been thinking. Thoughts?