Hybrid Paladin Warlock Suggestions

KarinsDad

Visitor
In our current table group, we are going to start switching off DMs every few levels, so I'll be getting a chance to play instead of DM.

I was thinking of putting together a Hybrid Paladin Warlock.

I haven't decided on race yet, but possible a Halfling or a Human. Possibly not.

If anyone has any suggestions of race, feat, or power combos, please let me know.

One small combo that the PC will be doing is Eyebite while in Plate and Large Shield, if it hits move adjacent to the hit melee foe, and force the foe to:

a) attack this PC at -5 for invisible (AC 25 equivalent at level one), or
b) shift away and be limited to a MBA charge against a different PC, taking a -1 to hit (-2 challenge, +1 charge), and taking divine challenge damage, or
c) move away, take an Opportunity Attack from this PC, and not be limited to a MBA charge against a different PC, taking a -2 to hit, and taking divine challenge damage.

This assumes of course that the NPC cannot do a range or close attack and will not be in a situation to just shift away and be close enough to attack a different PC. Mostly, this tactic would be better if used against a brute or soldier, but there are probably some skirmishers or lurkers where it might work.

But, this one small combo isn't going to work some significant portion of the time. The PC will need some other good options to make up for the loss of class features that hybrid causes. So if you have any suggestions, please post them.

Thanks.
 

FreeXenon

Geeky Ecohumanistic Futurist
I just came upon this combination by chance and I am really jonesing to play the character...

A Tiefling Paladin/Warlock. There is an incredible amount of gross feat support for this combination.

I built one concentrating on Warlock as a Ranged Striker/Defender...
My build will work best with a beefy front line especially with a Fighter in the group.

Hybrid Training (Paladin Armor)
Crimson Fire
Crimson Legionairre
Turathi Weapon Training

Blast away with Eldritch Bolt on a target that is both Cursed and Challenged (at range) for quite a bit of damage.

There is a Warlock Encounter Utility that will give you some invisibilty and the Paladin power Mocking Smite that will also give you invisibility.
 

Evilhalfling

Adventurer
hybrid challenge is terrible.
- we had a paladin - multiclass warlock that did really well. His key features included a throwing sword, and the 3rd level enc warlock Teleport/burst.

He actually played alot like a swordmage, marking and then teleporting away.
The combo he built his character for (mark and eyebite) turned out to be alot less useful then mark, and retreat. He did alot of area marking, and would regularly have 3 or more non-adjacent enemies under divine sanction. As a dragonborn, marking with breath was also a favored trick.
 
Yeah, all the paladin/warlock crosses I've seen are basically kiting, same as a swordmage build would. Nothing WRONG with Eyebite of course, but the general idea is to put the fighter between you and the mobs and just turn the whole DC damage as something the enemy simply can't avoid. Curse them, DC them, stay away from them, hammer on them with Eldritch Blast. For even more fun drop some conditions on them when you can. Immobilized and helplessly taking DC damage is fun.

I'd say basically an elf, eladrin, other highly mobile race, but it is hard to find one that gives you the reasonably racial bonus lineup you need for hybrids. Halfling doesn't sound bad. Human is a good option too. The extra starting feat and at-will are gold for hybrids.
 

Mapache

Visitor
hybrid challenge is terrible.
You do know they changed it to not require an immediate action, so it's just like non-hybrid challenge but does slightly less damage? In any case, your Divine Sanction still does full damage, and you can take lots of powers that spam that around in Close Burst, so you can keep it up for about three rounds out of every fight. There's lots of feat support for tiefling paladin/warlocks (and they can actually put out more damage than a straight-up warlock). I've played one and he rocks.
 

jbear

Visitor
Here's a build I posted on another thread. I'd love to play it myself.

The Cursed One, level 11
Human, Warlock|Paladin, Student of Caiphon: Warlock Radiant Powers crit on 18-20
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid): Star Pact (Hybrid):Required for Student of Caiphon Paragon Path
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Charisma
Hybrid Warlock: Hybrid Warlock Reflex
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Paladin Armor Proficiency: Plate and Heavy shields
Twofold Pact: Fey Pact: This comes with the Boon; now you teleport when your curse target drops.
Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit): Can change this but it fits a Paladin/warlock to the tee if you ask mee; extra HPs yay!

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 16, Dex 14, Int 16, Wis 9, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16.


AC: 27 Fort: 22 Reflex: 22 Will: 23
HP: 84 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +13, Religion +13, Bluff +15, Intimidate +15, Stealth +12

FEATS
Human: Heavy Blade Expertise: Pretty unavoidable
Level 1: Hybrid Talent: This is where you get your Heavy Armour
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade): Bastard Sword is okay if you want to get a Heavy Shield instead but when your crit range increases to 18-20 at level 11 ... devastating!
Level 4: Shadow Initiate: The path to gain Shadow Walk; You can now use your sword as your implement! oh and stealth boost ... plus Shrouds. Good deal! This is why you invest a 13 in DEX
Level 6: White Lotus Riposte: Of course
Level 8: Cursed Shadow: Hello Shadow Step!
Level 10: Crimson Fire: Marked and Cursed targets = curse damage uses d10s!
I prefer this over turning your Paladin At Will to a Arcane Power (Domain of Arcana?), but it's an option. Alternatively, Dragonmark of Warding is another sound option. You'll get both those feats anyway at some stage.

Level 11: Twofold Pact: Second Pact, this time with Boon! And Eyebite! SO retrain Eyebite for Hand of Blight or Enfeebling Strike

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Eyebite: Mark, and Blind at Range
Hybrid at-will 1: Eldritch Strike: Bread and Butter
Hybrid at-will 1: Virtuous Strike: Cha MBA; Pretty Crappy but it does deal Radiant Damage so okay vs Undead at least ... gets decent if you gain Domain of Arcana and possibly convince your DM to allow Corellon to gain access to the Domain of the Sun
Hybrid encounter 1: Valorous Smite: Mark everything within 3 of you with your Sanction
Hybrid daily 1: Crown of Stars: Warlock Radiant Power that gives you an encounter long minor action Warlock Radiant Power Attack; see Student of Caiphon + Full Blade which is your Implement
Hybrid utility 2: Bless Weapon: Doesn't say it works only on melee attacks ... so all your Implement attacks through your Blessed sword gain this AWESOME benefit for 1 encounter per day
Hybrid encounter 3: Otherwind Stride: Get in and get out!
Hybrid daily 5: Hallowed Circle: That's quite a big explosion ... lots of attacks, lots of chances to crit! High Crit Weapon! And while your sword is Blessed ...awesome
Hybrid utility 6: Shadowslip: Move towards or away from offending enemy that attacks you from afar
Hybrid encounter 7: Far Realm Phantasm: If you hit, the next turn the enemy attacks thin air! Pretty awesome vs a solo creature or an elite Boss creature.
Hybrid daily 9: Radiant Pulse: Again ... sustaining encounter long lots of Radiant Warlock Power attacks; see Student of Caiphon etc.
Hybrid utility 10: Font of Healing: Heal yourself and a friend; warlocks need something to get other people to like them, right?

ITEMS: I don't put much thought into items; DM territory afaic.
Fullblade of Great Opportunity +2, Teleporting Wyvernscale Armor +3, Cloak of the Walking Wounded +2
 

KarinsDad

Visitor
Here's a build I posted on another thread. I'd love to play it myself.
Thanks.

This is a lot like what I was thinking of if I took a Human except that Shadow Initiate did not occur to me.

I was thinking of Lost in the Crowd if I took a Halfling.
 

KarinsDad

Visitor
Yeah, all the paladin/warlock crosses I've seen are basically kiting, same as a swordmage build would. Nothing WRONG with Eyebite of course, but the general idea is to put the fighter between you and the mobs and just turn the whole DC damage as something the enemy simply can't avoid.
I wasn't that interested in kiting or in forcing the DC damage as something the foe couldn't avoid. The DC damage for a Hybrid Paladin is 3 less than a standard Paladin, so it was more icing on the cake than anything else.

I was more interested in getting in the face of the foe, but making his counterattack hard to hit, or his attack on someone else at a penalty. It would be nice to find something like Daunting Challenge, but for a Paladin instead of a Fighter. The issue with taking a Hybrid Fighter/Warlock is that the mark only applies to Fighter attacks (and of course, getting to Plate armor requires a second feat).
 

Mapache

Visitor
How does a paladin-warlock make any sense in your campaigns?
Mine is a tiefling, so he's trying to reconstruct the ancient rites and traditions of the Crimson Knights of Bael Turath, an order of warrior-sorcerers that were the vanguard of the empire, empowered by the dark majesty of Asmodeus and further bound to him by infernal pacts. Mine doesn't worship Asmodeus, but he knows that there still power in those old bindings, waiting for the daring and the cunning to tap into it. The seed of the idea is from a Dragon article.
 

KarinsDad

Visitor
How does a paladin-warlock make any sense in your campaigns?
We will most likely be playing in Forgotten Realms, so Paladin / Warlock of Oghma is very doable. Such a PC would constantly be in search of knowledge, even knowledge from other entities.

A lot of players equate the word Paladin with good, and Warlock with evil. Neither of these have to be the case.
 

interwyrm

Visitor
If it's not living forgotten realms, a Paladin of Madness and Star Pact Warlock makes perfect sensse.

LFR doesn't allow evil gods.
 

MrMyth

Visitor
As others have mentioned, Tieflings have some excellent feat support for Paladin|Warlocks.

For myself, I did briefly play a Paladin/Warlock (can't remember if I was human or half-elf). Instead of the Eyebite/Challenge approach to make it hard for them to hurt anyone, I went with the Hellish Rebuke / Divine Challenge combo - so that no matter what they do, they end up taking damage. I've found that the Eyebite trick, while effective, tends to mainly cause frustration for the DM and slow combats down. Whereas extra damage everywhere is always fun, and helps speed things up!

I also tended to find more support for that combo - add in White Lotus Riposte and other elements to increase the damage further.
 

KarinsDad

Visitor
For myself, I did briefly play a Paladin/Warlock (can't remember if I was human or half-elf). Instead of the Eyebite/Challenge approach to make it hard for them to hurt anyone, I went with the Hellish Rebuke / Divine Challenge combo - so that no matter what they do, they end up taking damage. I've found that the Eyebite trick, while effective, tends to mainly cause frustration for the DM and slow combats down. Whereas extra damage everywhere is always fun, and helps speed things up!
Yeah, I thought about this for a little bit, but the Hellish Rebuke combo often does less damage than what I am thinking of and also encourages the NPCs to not attack the heavily armored Paladin Warlock.


The Eyebite trick is situationally useful, not something done every round. Using it against Artillery, for example, only works if one can pin the NPC against a wall. It needs to be used when it can be used in conjunction with Opportunity Attacks when possible. So, the PC needs (IMO) a different Warlock power for more significant ranged damage, hence, the PC needs to be Human.


For the more significant damage, a Human Hybrid can put 20 in Cha and use Arcane Reserves at level 1 if not using any Con based Warlock powers and using only Cha Warlock and Paladin powers. Having a Con based non-Human Paladin Warlock typically means 18 Con and 18 Cha. -1 to hit, -1 damage from the 20 Cha build.

So, the Divine Challenge does 4 instead of 5, and Hellish Rebuke does between 2D6+4 and 3D6+8 instead of the D6+D10+7 of Gift of Avernus (which will also hit more often, +1 for 20 Cha and rerolls). If the NPC attacks someone else, that damage will typically be 2d6+4+4 (15 average, 10.85 DPR) hitting 60% of the time as opposed to D6+D10+7 (16 average, 14.5 DPR) hitting 88% of the time (65% with one roll plus 23% with a second roll).

Hellish Rebuke totally incentivizes the NPC and his allies to go attack someone else (taking 4 damage instead of the potential extra D6+6) and since the Paladin armor results in a high AC, the Paladin Warlock will not trigger Hellish Rebuke extra damage every round (especially if the targeted NPC is attacking someone else and his allies do not want to more quickly kill one of their own). It is true that Hellish Rebuke averages more DPR if it triggers, but if the NPCs are played even slightly smart, it won't trigger most rounds.

And to me, incentivizing the NPCs to not attack the heavy armor PC is the opposite of what the PCs should be doing (course, going invisible will sometimes do that as well, but if used mostly when an OA is more or less forced if the foe does, it works out better in the long run). For a normal lightly armored Warlock, Hellish Rebuke is perfect. Go attack someone more heavily armored. For a heavily armored Hybrid, it's questionable.


Granted, I haven't yet decided to go with a 20 Cha, but I'm pretty sure I'm going with a Human for the extra power, feat, and +1 to two additional NADs. If I drop the Eyebite trick, I might go with a Halfling (I really like the flavor of a Halfling in Plate armor) or a Tiefling or even a Dragonborn.


Another possibility is to go with Human 18 Con, 16 Cha, Hellish Rebuke and Gift of Avernus. On rounds that nobody triggered the Hellish Rebuke, fire off Gift of Avernus and if it misses, get the free Hellish Rebuke damage for the previous round's attack.
 
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I wasn't that interested in kiting or in forcing the DC damage as something the foe couldn't avoid. The DC damage for a Hybrid Paladin is 3 less than a standard Paladin, so it was more icing on the cake than anything else.

I was more interested in getting in the face of the foe, but making his counterattack hard to hit, or his attack on someone else at a penalty. It would be nice to find something like Daunting Challenge, but for a Paladin instead of a Fighter. The issue with taking a Hybrid Fighter/Warlock is that the mark only applies to Fighter attacks (and of course, getting to Plate armor requires a second feat).
Right. I wonder if a Warden|Conlock would be viable? You have some stat synergy there, though not as much as with paladin obviously. You can do tons of marking though, and certainly keeping in the face of the enemy isn't a problem. You'd be going the light armor route of course, but there are some nice hide armor enchantments out there you could use. Just not sure you could get the defenses you'd need without excessive numbers of feats. Might be something to tinker with in CB though ;)
 

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