I’m Thinking of Giving 4e Another Shot

[UngainlyTitan]

This is exactly my own problem with the martial power source, i.e. emphasis on "cinematic stunts" that I just cannot wrap my mind around -- I *could* call them special "techniques" empowered by Chi/Ki, but that doesn't work for a "typical" D&D character in a pseudo-medieval setting ("How does my 1st level farmboy-turned-adventurer know how to pull off these stunts, if it would take years of martial arts practise in RL?"). It's not just about 'Split the Tree' -- I couldn't imagine how it works when a rogue uses, say, 'Blinding Barrage' on a group of Ghosts or Golems, or when a ranger uses 'Hammer Shot' on the same creatures.

Why not? as far as I can tell from talking to martial artists every one has ki and in principle can tap into it. Normally people do but in minor ways. No for every 1000 farm boys/street urchins that need to do Blinding Barrage only one manages it and lives to tell the tale. That is enough for me at least.
After all, how is this stuff idscovered in the first place. Monks do not discover matrial techniques in the monastery (back when they started out) they found the need to do it in battle and if they survived and because they are so in tune with their bodies they stumbled on ki and by study and excersise they leaned to exploit it and teach others how to do so.

That does not stop others doing so either but lacking the Monks training and body awareness and medtiative techniques they will never pass on that learning.

Does that work better?

 

[Mallus]

Mallus, Samuel Leming has provided more information since the first post, and indicated that Dausuul grasps the issues at hand.

I was just trying to offer a different perspective. Some of these are, after all, mainly problems of perspective.

 

[Mallus]

So you the player know that you can use the power once, but the character doesn't even know the power exists. To him/her, it's just a spur of the moment technique he pulls off.

Have some XP!

The best way not to overthink martial powers is not to overthink them.

 

[Primal]

Why not? as far as I can tell from talking to martial artists every one has ki and in principle can tap into it. Normally people do but in minor ways. No for every 1000 farm boys/street urchins that need to do Blinding Barrage only one manages it and lives to tell the tale. That is enough for me at least.
After all, how is this stuff idscovered in the first place. Monks do not discover matrial techniques in the monastery (back when they started out) they found the need to do it in battle and if they survived and because they are so in tune with their bodies they stumbled on ki and by study and excersise they leaned to exploit it and teach others how to do so.

That does not stop others doing so either but lacking the Monks training and body awareness and medtiative techniques they will never pass on that learning.

Does that work better?

Hmmm... not really, since I don't necessarily subscribe to "everyone can do it" or "everybody utilizes Chi" schools of thought (and I don't want to start any pseudo-philosophical/religious debate here). And even if I did, some powers in certain situations just do not make sense to me (like the ones I listed). I would be fine if Chi-like stuff could be done via PPs or simply higher-level powers -- it's not as if Epic PCs should remain wholly "mundane" -- but at 1st level it just does not feel "right" for me. It may be more "normal" in contempory popular culture (action/wuxia movies and anime/manga), but I'm more "traditionalist" in this sense (and just for the record: in my books RL myths and epics are one thing, and traditional fantasy fiction wholly another).

 

[Pbartender]

Ok.

The question was how I justified the barbarian rage ability? I just used the default line of bull from the PHB that raging is exhausting. That was good enough for me.

The 4e PHB doesn't even provide that for martial powers, but I think switching them all over to expendable ki is as good an explanation as exhaustion was for barbarian rage.

I know this may spur on the "D&D is too Anime!" crowd, but...

Something that really helped me accept the encounter and daily paradigm was watching Kung Fu Panda... Or any other slightly silly Kung Fu style flick (Shaolin Soccer would be another good example).

It was a simple shift in perspective from "how would scene play out in a novel?" to "how would this scene play out in a movie?" You see something similar, but more subtley, in the difference between the LotR books and the movies.

Again and again in the movies, you see the same basic trick played in different ways, based on the scenery and situation at hand.

For example, Jackie Chan obviously has the "Shield Bash" power, allowing him push an opponent back and then knock them prone. He almost never uses more than once per scene (ie encounter), but every time he does it, the ability uses a different method... Somtimes he just punches or kicks the guy, sometimes he shoves with a ladder or chair, sometimes the baddies slips in some conveniently placed liquid, or trips on a bucket.

The point being if you describe them a little bit differently each time, the reason a martial Daily is a Daily takes care of itself... Last time, I knocked him prone just by shoving hard. This time, it's because I pulled the rug out from under him. Next time, it's because I forced him to trip over a stool.

It also has the added benefit of encouraging role play by way of description in combat.

 

[jbear]

I have a question about Magic Items for the OP.

Is it the magic items in the PHB and AV you don't like, or just the distrubution guidelines?

I have the feeling maybe the methodic way it is presented is limiting your imagination as to the ways PC's can aquire treasure.

One of the coolest ways to distribute treasure that I've read on these boards was done by Pirate Cat. His PC's are a company of border guards protecting civilisation from the savage lands. They began the adventure with a cloak brooch, symbol of their company. It was an ordinary brooch, but when they went up a level the magic inside came to life and it became magical.

I imagine it was some kind of +1 neck slot item. I imagine PCat loosely used the treasure parcel guidelines to decide how much treasure should be distributed, but obviously wasn't restricted by it. I imagine all the items were identical, and thus of an identical level. The treasure parcels don't recommend distributing items of the same level (It's usually lvl 6, lvl 5, lvl 4... etc.). But it's no big problem. They are guidelines to help you decide what is too much and what is too little treasure.

 

[jbear]

I agree with the OP about martial powers in 4e, so I'm working on a couple different systems that would make all martial powers usable at will. Neither is a perfect solution, I know, but for those like me who feel that martial powers shouldn't be vancian, they may spark some better ideas.

Both of these ideas are based around the simple assumption that powers expend energy: At Wills expend a small amount of energy, Encounters put a strain on the user, and Dailies are downright tiring.



(1) Encounter and Daily powers can be used at will, but the character takes a cumulative -2 penalty each time an Encounter power is used after the first usage, (-2 for the second attempt, -4 for the third, -6 for the fourth, etc.). Dailies can be re-used at a cumulative -4 penalty, (-4, -8, -12).

These penalties are for each attempt, not each successful usage.

OR

(2) Encounter and Daily powers can be used at will, but each power can only be used if certain conditions are met. At this point, I'm thinking Encounters would need two conditions met in order to function, and Dailies would need three or four, although its probably best to assign logical conditions to a power based on its effects and power, without sticking to a formula.

There are a lot of conditions, and its taking some work assigning conditions to each power, but as a for instance, here's the Fighter Daily 01 Flanking Assault:

Flanking Assault - Fighter Attack 01
(fluff text)
Martial, Weapon
Conditions: Flanking an enemy that you have already damaged, with at least one additional ally adjacent to the target.
Target: One creature you're flanking
Attack: Str vs. AC
Hit: (etc.)


There are hundreds of possible conditions, but some possible ones are:
Flanked, or is Flanking
Last Attack hit (missed) the same target
Target was hit (missed) by an ally in the same round
Critical Hit
Bloodied, or Target is Bloodied
Granting Combat Advantage, or Target is granting Combat Advantage
Dazed, Stunned, Marked, Blinded, Prone, Deafened, Dominated, Dying, Restrained, Slowed, or Helpless,
or Target is Dazed, Stunned, Marked, Blinded, Prone, Deafened, Dominated, Dying, Restrained, Slowed, Weakened or Helpless
Surprised, or Target is Surprised
Target is Petrified, Immobilized or Unconscious
Target is vulnerable or resistant to X
Adjacent to 1 (or more than 1) Enemy
Adjacent to 1 (or more than 1) Ally
Wielding Melee Weapon
Using Ranged Weapon
Wielding an Axe
Wielding a Sword
Wielding 2 weapons
Wielding a Blunt Weapon
etc,
etc.

Sounds very complicated and difficult to track.

It also seems very unfair that you only give this option to martial characters. Why should it be any different than aracne characters or primal charcters? Especially in a world where the premises for magic are so vastly different than our world. Magic is something natural, second nature to many of the races of the world.

 

[Piratecat]

They are guidelines to help you decide what is too much and what is too little treasure.

Right (and thanks for the kind words). The treasure parcels are a good tool for busy folks, and they're great at telling you the total amount of treasure the PCs should receive per level. How you pass that much treasure out is totally and completely up to you.

In this case, I gave them "vanilla" cloak pins that are gaining powers on their own as the group adventures. These can be anything I want, and will continue to evolve over their characters' careers. I pick powers that will be fun or interesting; for instance, the doppelganger's allows her to easily learn new languages, all the better for impersonating someone. Mechanically, when I upgrade these I consider it worth a magic item of the appropriate level. Works really well for me.

In my game, it's a property of a substance named witchwater, and I'll probably do something similar with the occasional magic weapon. I like the idea of your weapon growing with you.

 

[Ariosto]

It also has the added benefit of encouraging role play by way of description in combat.

There's a difference in perspective. Such post hoc narration is not what "role playing" formerly meant! Some adjustment in the kind of experience one expects to get out of the game can be pretty important if one approaches "D&D" by default intent on dealing with the imagined world and unfolding "story" from a character's perspective rather than a narrator's (or, as DM, facilitating that style of play).

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'm personally fine with martial as it works now, because I don't mind some narrativism in my D&D (rather like it, actually), and also because as a fencer I have no trouble accepting, from an in-character, simulationist perspective--that certain things only happen about once an encounter or once a day. There are things you can try as often as you want in fencing--because at worst you'll give up a touch. If your life was on the line, you wouldn't even try them 1/day, and certainly not without the situation being perfect. You don't spam brute strike over and over because the last guy five guys you saw try that are all dead. So the only simulationist hit, to me, is precisely the narrativism--the player picking when. The what is not a problem.

I don't think there is any real way to completely square this problem and stay within the rules as written, but if "ki" is the perspective you need to accept it, then whatever works. I also happen to think that all characters, but certainly martial, know how to do most of the powers. The ones on their sheets are the ones they practice constantly. This is why "retraining" works. Because stuff like this doesn't work unless practiced constantly. "Ki" fits that idea well enough, and thus retraining gets a sim nod.

To actually rip the narrativism out, I'd be tempted to put it all back on equipment. Specifically, use the +1 attack, damage, and defenses at 3rd, 8th, etc. houserule (also adjusted for masterwork armor at higher levels). Now, as noted earlier, magic items are almost totally optional. The only power you are missing if you don't have any is the extra properties and the magic item activations, which you can still supply with a handful of items. Now, that items are not so important, take all the exploits (or at least the dailys) and invest them as special abilities of the equipment. To keep it simple, remove the magic item activations per day limit.

The net result is that the fighter is described somewhat by his sword. OTOH, he can pick up a sword at 1st level and use it for a long time, maybe his whole career. He can lose the sword and be out of dailies until he gets it back. On the other hand, he can pick up an axe and still have his +X to hit and damage. And he can find another magic weapon with different abilities (though rarely), and thus have two sets of powers to pick from. The mechanics are a lot different, but if you are stingy with equipment, the rationalization won't be that different from why the Basic D&D fighter needs that magic sword to beat the dragon.