I’m Thinking of Giving 4e Another Shot

[Rechan]

or don't get hung up by the fact that the power's default description mentions strength and explain it in another fashion.

IE: El Biggie tries to dodge the attack, but in doing so throws himself off balance and stumbles back two squares.

Or it slams into him and he runs back in a rage...

Or El Biggie gets shot a knee joint, it gives, and he stumbles back two squares - since he's so clearly huge, his steps are rather large, so a single staggered backstep is two squares.

Or he simply recoils in pain, because it hit a previous wound.

A rogue can't use a single dagger with Blinding Barrage, btw, unless it's magical.

 

[Ariosto]

When I play a RPG I make decisions for my character based upon what I think my character would do given the information he has in the game world situation he finds himself. ... This is the style the GNS folks have referred to as 'simulationism', but it’s always just been regular role playing to me.

It is also not merely the "style" but the method of play in early RPGs. It's the fundamental reason for the position of referee. I don't recall any mention at all of post hoc narration being part of (much less identified with) playing a character in OD&D, AD&D, or any other RPG rules set of the 1970s -- which, not coincidentally, did not aim for dissociation of mechanics from the world situation. This is a matter not merely of my (or S.L.'s) opinion but of historical record.

 

[illwizard]

They are guidelines to help you decide what is too much and what is too little treasure

Ah right, Sorry my mistake, I confused it with 'Wish Lists'. Yes I guess I can see the positives of treasure parcels, thanks for the explanation.
I still hate Wish Lists though; since when was Santa a DM? Although, he does lead a party of elves I hear.

 

[Rechan]

Ah right, Sorry my mistake, I confused it with 'Wish Lists'. Yes I guess I can see the positives of treasure parcels, thanks for the explanation.
I still hate Wish Lists though; since when was Santa a DM? Although, he does lead a party of elves I hear.

I'll tell you something about wishlists.

I'm a DM and I use them. Why?

I hate doing treasure. I hate trying to divine "What will my players use? What will they like?" Because I've had them find treasure and the items get a whole lot of "Meh" in response.

And I loathe selling/buying magical items. So "WIsh lists" is just a whole lot more reasonable, for me, than "Yeah let's take these items the DM thought we could use, and take them to Magic Pawnshop #82 so I can get what I want anyways."

And before I get "Quest for it!" The system assumes that each PC has 3 items: Neck, armor, weapon. I have 5-6 PCs. If every PC is questing for 2-3 items... that means that all they are doing is questing for their equipment, because they want that equipment. Not to mention in my experience, getting players to decide on a goal themselves and pursue it is like getting a cat to take a pill.

 

[Pbartender]

It is also not merely the "style" but the method of play in early RPGs. It's the fundamental reason for the position of referee. I don't recall any mention at all of post hoc narration being part of (much less identified with) playing a character in OD&D, AD&D, or any other RPG rules set of the 1970s -- which, not coincidentally, did not aim for dissociation of mechanics from the world situation. This is a matter not merely of my (or S.L.'s) opinion but of historical record.

Out of curiosity, what's your reason for quibbling over this point of semantics?

Is it really that important to you that narrative description of actions (either pre or post hoc) and scenery not be lumped into the term "role playing"? If so, I can just go back and edit my post so we get back to giving SL some help with his 4E game.

 

[bagger245]

Hi guys, I too have the same prob of wanting to like 4e. Compared to other earlier editions, 4e makes me want to have combats all the time and not
roleplay due to the powers and combat stats. When I DM, all I want to do is pit the players against encounters after encounters because players spend
alot of time tweaking their PCs to combat perfection and would be such a waste if we had a session without any combat at all. We usually don't have this
mentality with other RPGs. Any tips on encouraging more roleplaying instead of thinking on how to unleash my latest encounter power every second? It seems I cant play 4e any other style besides kick the door dungeoncrawling style...

 

[Rechan]

Any tips on encouraging more roleplaying instead of thinking on how to unleash my latest encounter power every second? It seems I cant play 4e any other style besides kick the door dungeoncrawling style...

Play it for a year. You'll get it out of your system.

 

[bagger245]

I admit I love playing it as a player with all the tactics and teamwork, but when its comes to DMing I feel bored and have not much fun as compared to my players. Is the fun in combat really the defining point of 4e's draw?

As I type this, I am itching to DM 4e again for a group of tactically inclined players, but I am scared I'll get dissapointed again..

 

[Ariosto]

Pbartender, my concern was with recognizing S.L.'s own characterization of the issues at hand. A language barrier is not conducive to the understanding predicate to being of real help. The shift in perspective from "how would scene play out in a novel?" to "how would this scene play out in a movie?" is pretty trivial next to the shift involved in going from the old concept of an RPG to 4E.

I reject narrativism completely.

That may end up modified in a rapprochement with 4E, but ignorance of the starting position is hardly helpful. The difference between the phenomena being denoted in the different usages is not trivial.

I was asked for the basis of my claim that the terminology in a particular case had departed from former usage, and my first answer was too vague. Therefore, I followed up with a more detailed explanation and a reminder of the relevance to the original subject of the thread -- which has (in keeping with the nature of such things, so no dismay!) wandered a bit from that focus.

I think it would be counter-productive to edit your post, as it provides context for a tangential discussion that may have contributed some disambiguation.

 

[Rechan]

Pbartender, my concern was with recognizing S.L.'s own characterization of the issues at hand. A language barrier is not conducive to the understanding predicate to being of real help. The shift in perspective from "how would scene play out in a novel?" to "how would this scene play out in a movie?" is pretty trivial next to the shift involved in going from the old concept of an RPG to 4E. That may end up modified in a rapprochement with 4E, but ignorance of the starting position is hardly helpful. The difference between the phenomena being denoted in the different usages is not trivial.

Just as ignorance of the starting point isn't helpful, it's also not helpful to assume everyone went from the Old RPG.

There are a lot of Indie RPGs out there which are more like 4e, and those who have played that style for a long while, or at least are used to them, are a lot more accustomed to it. Or those who just aren't that well versed in the Old RPG.

Back in my Exalted days, only at certain points did we even pick up the dice for combat; in some cases, we were assumed to have won before the first sword was drawn*. So instead of going through actual combat, we went around in a circle telling what our PC did to contribute to the total victory. (But then, in that system, the better you describe your actions, the bigger the bonus you receive, so it's built into the system to encourage colorful description in the first place).

*This was because in Exalted, the PCs are Chosen; literal demi-gods. So the only things that stand a chance against Chosen are other Chosen, or high powered monsters. That campaign was also very much Nation Building/politics/power amassing/questing, so combat wasn't important unless it was a plot point.