I am become Pun-Pun, destroyer of multiverses

[BlackMoria]

The DM trumps the rules.

The first person in my game who tried to exploit a loophole to undertake something like Pun-Pun or whatever would get a emphatic 'NO' from me and if he persisted in proclaiming his rights under the rules as written, he would find the door hitting his ass on this way out.

Whether there are loopholes or no, the rules are guidelines (as mentioned many times) and the buck starts and stops with the DM for what is allowed in his campaign.

 

[atom crash]

Both of the tactics mentioned by the OP rely on combining different feats/spells/PRCs/whatever from various sources that are not core, thus a DM must make a deliberate decision about whether or not to include them in his game. For example, the sarrukh comes from a Forgotten Realms sourcebook, and so it would never be seen in my game. No Pun-Pun for me, thank you.

The list of 3.5 loopholes can be continued for days.

I recall a month or so ago someone tried to collect these in one thread; it petered out after a few days.

I have to agree with the other posters who have said that these loopholes are not evidence that the game is broken, they are merely evidence that some players go out of their way to find ridiculously convoluted loopholes to break the game.

 

[Mortis]

...and of course the whole Pun-Pun thing will take time. I wonder if anyone has calculated how many rounds the whole thing would take?

Yes I know the answer to that, is that Pun-Pun was created before the start of the campaign. Still is going to take 10,000s of rounds to give him everything thats in the writeup.

Regards
Mortis

 

[Henry]

Say what you like about AD&D -- it was *hard* to become a god and the DM's judgement was written into the process.

To me, it's no different with a GM letting you take these choices, and allowing them to work this way, than it is for a GM letting you write down god-level stats on your AD&D character sheet. In the core rules of 1st AD&D, it was possible for a Girdle of Giant Strength, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and Hammer of Thunderbolts stack, and allow you a weapon to destroy practically anything in the game! (That's a +14 to hit and a +21 to damage by itself?) Add in a suit of plate mail +5, a ring of protection +6 (+1 to saves), and a cloak of displacement, and a halfway decent dex (like 16), and that's -12 AC, almost unhittable.

Thor himself, with his (350? Odin had 400) hit points could have been smacked down before he could hit you, especially if you had a cleric casting Heal spells on you from time to time. He'd probably have to teleport away, and let you cry, "chicken!!!"

(Then, later rules limited AC top scores, and opened up the power of gods; likewise, the same thing here, in that for all we know, Divine minion may be altered).

Likewise, in the Rules Cyclopedia --- becoming a god was doable, reasonable, and very challenging.

Also, with quite literally a thousandth of the options available, this is easy to understand. Fewer options mean fewer theoretical exploits; it also means many players don't find it as fun.

No rule set is without its exploits, and it's where a GM is needed as much as at any time in the past.

 

[Barak]

...and of course the whole Pun-Pun thing will take time. I wonder if anyone has calculated how many rounds the whole thing would take?

Yes I know the answer to that, is that Pun-Pun was created before the start of the campaign. Still is going to take 10,000s of rounds to give him everything thats in the writeup.

Regards
Mortis

10,000 rounds is only 7 days. Taking away 8 hours a day to sleep/rest, that makes it 21 days. It can easily take just as long, if not longer, for a blacksmith to make a suit of Full Plate armor.

That said, I agree with everything else said in this thread, of course. That the rules -can- be broken doesn't make them broken, assuming you have to go quite a bit out of your way to brake them.

 

[erc1971]

This is a classic case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. I am sure Hasbro expects Wotc to bring in some pretty hefty profit. To do so, they need to churn out alot of product!

If 5 books are being written simultaneously by 5 different people, they are unable to compare these books in process, only with what is already out there. Loopholes are bound to occur.

Another issue, is no playtest time. Look at the amount of questions that have cropped up with the Duskblade - there is no way that class was playtested properly - as the book needed to go to printer to keep up with the hectic release schedule.

This will continue to happen as long as the profits need to stay extremely high. Product will need to be pumped out at astonishing rates. Houserules, banning of things that should not be (like Pun-pun), not using every book in your campaign, etc. can all keep things in line.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Say what you like about AD&D -- it was *hard* to become a god and the DM's judgement was written into the process.

Likewise, in the Rules Cyclopedia --- becoming a god was doable, reasonable, and very challenging.

Wait a minute. You don't think they put Rule Zero into the book for a reason?

AD&D and previous editions had plenty of easily exploitable loopholes; the fact that the DM *had* to rule so many things on the fly rather than rely on the written rules hardly resolves that issue.

It continues to amaze me how so many "edition war" threads hang on the absurd argument that 3e removes any role for the DM whatsoever. It's not like the DMG comes with an icepick and instructions for carrying out an improvised lobotomy, people.

 

[Thanee]

It's not like the DMG comes with an icepick and instructions for carrying out an improvised lobotomy, people.

LOL

Bye
Thanee

 

[Stalker0]

10,000 rounds is only 7 days. Taking away 8 hours a day to sleep/rest, that makes it 21 days. It can easily take just as long, if not longer, for a blacksmith to make a suit of Full Plate armor.

And after about 2 days, the gods upstairs, "...hey!! Wait a minute!! Guys, check this mortal out!! You see what I see? Man, he could just keep going, getting stronger. What do you all thi...you me too, just wanted to check.


WRAITH OF THE GODS!!!!"

There you have it, a perfectly in game reason why Pun Pun would never exist

 

[Barak]

And after about 2 days, the gods upstairs, "...hey!! Wait a minute!! Guys, check this mortal out!! You see what I see? Man, he could just keep going, getting stronger. What do you all thi...you me too, just wanted to check.


WRAITH OF THE GODS!!!!"

There you have it, a perfectly in game reason why Pun Pun would never exist

Excpet the build involves Divine Minion, no? Now, if a God can't keep a mere mortal hidden from the eye of the other Gods for less than a month..