I am forseeing problems with feats

[Stogoe]

Tactical feats will probably get their components beefed up and separated into powers. I'm guessing you'll get a choice of power every level, and a choice of feat every other level, and a bunch of bonus feats from your class, too.

There'll be plenty of slots and choices. But you can't have every option on every character, either.

 

[Ahglock]

It's completely unfair to complain that 4e feats aren't exactly the same as 3e feats, and intellectually dishonest to say they objectively suck when you're seeing them out of context of the entire system.

4e feats are weaker than 3e feats, sure, but everyone gets a boatload more class powers so it's okay. Feats don't serve the same purpose in the new edition.

Yeah they apparently serve the purpose of being lame. I don't care if the cool stuff comes form powers that still just means that if this feat is a solid example of a paragon level feat that feats are lame. And hey if its like saga I'll get like 17 of them so I can have 17 points of lame on my character.

 

[pemerton]

The "act in surprise round" doesn't seem that weak to me. By all accounts actions are the new currency in D&D combat, so paying a feat to get an extra action from time to time doesn't seem irrational per se.

I suspect that the AP cost is not paricularly high, but is a method of regulating the taking of additional actions. From the existence of this feat, it seems that we can infer the existence of other feats that give additional actions under certain circumstances, that also use APs as the activation currency.

 

[qstor]

I'm actually hoping that feat chains are no longer go as deep as they did in 3e. I hated how feats like Whirlwind Attack basically forced you to plan your feat allotment several levels in advance and discouraged organic development of abilities.

Note : For the sake of this argument let's pretend that striving towards acquiring Whirlwind Attack wasn't a fool's errand.

I disagree. The whole point of feat chains is to build the PC level by level over time. Whirlwind attack shouldn't be available in levels 1-3 IMHO.

Mike

 

[med stud]

Anyway, from the feats we've seen, feats will be so mechanically weak that balance problems won't be an issue. With the sole exception of class training, which, unless it limits you to very stupid options, will be a 'must have' character optimization-wise.

I'm honestly curious; which feats from the PHB 3.5 were much more powerful than the feats presented here in your opinion?

EDIT: Acting in a surprise round can be huge. Nail their damage dealer, run up to disrupt their archers, throw up some kind of bonus, etc.

 

[Voss]

I'm honestly curious; which feats from the PHB 3.5 were much more powerful than the feats presented here in your opinion?

Power attack, quicken spell, two weapon fighting, natural spell, craft <whatever>, iron will & company, augment summoning, spirited charge, spring attack, etc. It got notably worse with more books, of course. And presumably they aren't just looking at feats that happened to be published for the first PH. There were gems published afterwards, and a lot of garbage in it.

Its more the change in design philosophy. The good 3rd edition feats gave you options. The 4th edition feats we've been shown give you trivial bonuses, along the lines of the garbage feats that fill multiple splatbooks in 3rd edition (and infest the PH as well). The horrible things that were only worth taking as a prereq for a *really* good prestige class, which was a design flaw in itself. (Garbage now for power later isn't good design in my view). I guess thats what bothers me- the garbage looks to be the normal range for feats. And of course, things that were feats and should be open to anyone who takes the time to learn it are being incorporated as class powers. But thats another argument, already had.

EDIT: Acting in a surprise round can be huge. Nail their damage dealer, run up to disrupt their archers, throw up some kind of bonus, etc.

So max out your perception skill. I look at it this way- this feat requires an absurd amount of ifs to be true, and it uses up multiple resources. Thats bad. Worse, its also competing directly with the heroic tier feat (the only passable one of the bunch) which lets you negate the disadvantages of being surprised, and makes it less likely you will be in the first place.

But here. That feat is only useful IF you are surprised (fail a perception check) and you are spending a limited resource (a feat) in order to spend another limited resource (AP) in order to be in a position you would have been in anyway had you rolled well and built your character 'properly' in the first place.

And yes, I just said that. Perception is a no brainer skill for heroic adventurers. People sneaking up and attacking you happens all the time. So does looking for hidden things. But it really stands out (along with initiative, if they follow Saga's horrible example and make that a skill), as a skill any surviving adventurer would have. Though I'm sure someone can come up with all sorts of justifications as to why their character's background means they shouldn't have it. Its somewhat regrettable, but the basics of the game really shout 'Take this skill, or you'll regret it!'

 

[Stogoe]

Yeah they apparently serve the purpose of being lame. I don't care if the cool stuff comes form powers that still just means that if this feat is a solid example of a paragon level feat that feats are lame. And hey if its like saga I'll get like 17 of them so I can have 17 points of lame on my character.

I get it now; you just want to complain and not discuss. Very well; I won't stand in the way of your uninformed complaining any longer. Have fun.

 

[Ahglock]

I get it now; you just want to complain and not discuss. Very well; I won't stand in the way of your uninformed complaining any longer. Have fun.

I am discussing sorry if I can make a logical analysis about a feat based on a lot of information. Disagreeing with you isn't the same thing as not discussing. I see this feat as total weak sauce and it is a paragon level feat. If other paragon feats are of a similar caliber that just makes all the feats total weak sauce. This feat doesn't magically become good, because comparatively it isn't too bad. It just still sucks, just like the other comparatively weak feats suck.

I've already edited and re-edited my response to avoid responding to your insults in kind so I'll end it here.

 

[Stogoe]

Repeating that things are lame without any explanation over and over again isn't a discussion, it's babbling.