D&D 4E I bought GURPS 4e!!!! (and returned it the next day)

[Tonguez]

GURPS has the BEST character creation system

but

D20 has a much better Stat and skill/action resulotion system

now D20 GURPS - that would be paradise

 

[Dancer]

I have heard many complaints about the GURPS core rules being too complex from many gamers. I have wanted to play GURPS 3e for years and the common response to my requests was that they didnt want to play a system like GURPS with all the rules (optional or not) in the core book. On the other hand, perhaps your subtle insinuation that myself and my players are dullards incapable of comprehending the arcane words inscribed within the sacred GURPS core books is accurate. In such a case, my hat is off to the supra-geniuses that game regularly at your gaming table.

Ahhh, BD, let us use the ENTIRE quote shall we.... to wit....

Actually, I don't need to google. I've been running Gurps for about 7-8 years. I ran DnD for about 10-12 years before that. I'm fairly familiar with the complexities of both systems. In all that time, I've never had a player say to me that the system has too many rules. I've introduced 30+ people to the Gurps system without problem. Maybe I got lucky and found really, really intelligent people. Or maybe, just maybe, the system is not at all complex, once you spend more than one day with it.

That wasn't a slam on the intelligence of you and your players. It was a suggestion that maybe you might want to spend more than one day attempting to understand the rules. I'm pretty sure it took you more than one day to understand all the rules of DnD. Now you, you called yourself and your players dullards. I'm pretty straightforward, if that is what I meant, I would have said so.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

The problem I had with GURPS was more one of characters starting to look far too similar. Are there still only 4 stats, all of which tend (by necessity) to be rather low? Is Dex still far and away the best stat?

DX and IQ are still far more useful than ST and HT. However, they now cost twice as much than the latter ones - DX and IQ cost a flat 20 points per level, while ST and HT cost a flat 10 points per level. So the "big and tough barbarian" becomes a lot easier to build...

Other major changes: Hit Points are now based off ST, not HT, while Fatigue Points are now based off HT instead of ST (this allows for mages who can cast more spells without actually having to be strong...). Both Physical and Mental skills are now based on a 1/2/4/+4 progression, with the starting level depending on the difficulty of the skill. No more half-points in skills, and thus, fewer "jack-of-all-trades" who purchase high DX or IQ and then put a half-point into dozens of skills. Now specializing in a few skills is a much better strategy...

We've also been assured that building Supers characters is actually feasible without stumbling over lots of broken advantages. Well, I will be able to judge that later - my copies of the Basic Set are waiting for me at the post office.

I tremendously enjoyed a Shadowrun game I played in that operated under the GURPS rules. I also found GURPS Martial Arts to be incredibly cinematic and yet relatively 'realistic' feeling. But my experience with all the characters ending up looking like clones of one another soured me on the system pretty quickly.

With the changes to character creation, characters will probably be more diverse.

HERO (to this day arguably my favorite system for character creation and fun combats) clearly inspired much of GURPS, but while I feel GURPS handled gritty campaigns far better, it still lacked the character diversity that Champions seemed to foster. Certainly part of that can be attributed to the variety of characters possible in a superhero game, but since GURPS really did seem to emphasize lower power games, it just seemed that it could have made its area of focus feel more diverse than it did.

Apparently, one of the design goals of 4E seems to have been to make higher-powered games easier - and early comments on the game seem to agree.

If 4th Edition really addresses that, I might be interested. If I'm still going to end up seeing 14 Dex characters that skimp on strength and buy P/E skills up to make called shots (making those low strengths irrelevant) and PD up to block incoming attacks (needing the same advantages to do so), I'll pass.

DX 14 now costs 80 points, so it is unlikely you will see too many of those in low-powered games. PD is gone - just add the old defense value without PD to three to get the new one (so someone with a weapon skill of 14 will have a Parry value of 14/2 + 3 = 10).

I'll see how called shots are handled later today...

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Maybe you aren't looking at the right place in d20. Go look at d20 Modern, it has all the elements you are looking for, even in just the few official books from WotC released so far. Breaking it down:
Psionics: In the d20 Modern core book, slightly elaborated in Urban Arcana
Space Travel: In the d20 Future suppliment for d20 M.
Time/Dimensional Travel: In d20 Future.
Magic: In the d20 Modern core book, heavily elaborated in Urban Arcana.
Spirits & Horror: The d20 Modern Core book, with lots more in the Menace Manual and Urban Arcana, and even a bit of d20 Future (the "Dark Heart of Space" setting).

Not as smoothly as GURPS, though. How about these characters:

- A child who is also a very powerful telekinetic - but the same power also goes of uncontrollable now and then, and becomes a danger to everyone around him.

- An old man who is physically frail and could be knocked unconscious with one punch - but who has a lot of knowledge of certain academic fields, a vast fortune, and a large number of contacts and allies all around the world.

- A sapient wolf.

- An artificial intelligence that can switch between multiple robotic bodies, and be restored from backup.


I'm not saying that all these couldn't be done with d20. But it would involve a lot of work, possibly lots of supplements, and quite a lot of GM judgement. With GURPS, all you need is one book. And this only starts to scratch the surface of the character possibilities...

d20 is all right if you can shoehorn your characters into the standard level/ECL system. But for more exotic characters its weaknesses begin to show...

 

[Allanon]

Not as smoothly as GURPS, though. How about these characters:

- A child who is also a very powerful telekinetic - but the same power also goes of uncontrollable now and then, and becomes a danger to everyone around him.

D20 Mutants and Masterminds.

- An old man who is physically frail and could be knocked unconscious with one punch - but who has a lot of knowledge of certain academic fields, a vast fortune, and a large number of contacts and allies all around the world.

D20 Mutants and Masterminds again.

- A sapient wolf.

Actually D&D 3.5, D20 Modern, D20 Call of Ctulhu, D20 Mutants and Masterminds, etc. could all handle this one.

- An artificial intelligence that can switch between multiple robotic bodies, and be restored from backup.

D20 Mutants and Masterminds again when it comes to flexibility I doubt that you could get more flexible that M&M.

I'm not saying that all these couldn't be done with d20. But it would involve a lot of work, possibly lots of supplements, and quite a lot of GM judgement. With GURPS, all you need is one book. And this only starts to scratch the surface of the character possibilities...

d20 is all right if you can shoehorn your characters into the standard level/ECL system. But for more exotic characters its weaknesses begin to show...

You're too focused on d20 being just D&D and Modern. More companies produce d20 products and Green Ronin with Mutants and Masterminds has just the thing for all your examples, sure it's a super hero setting by hart but it's not limited to it. The d20 system at it's core is just as flexible as GURPS, d20 modern is not but it was never meant to be as flexible.

The question then remains which system solves different realism problems in a way better suited to your personal style? But since that's something only you yourself can decide I won't bother you with recommending either one of them. besides the most flexible system remains "The Human Mind", in there anything is possible

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

D20 Mutants and Masterminds.

But Mutants and Masterminds isn't d20 (no, really, it isn't - it doesn't use the licence)! Sure, it uses quite a few of the same trappings - the same attributes, skills, and similar saving throws - but it uses these to build something radically different. It has no classes, and barely any levels - and is thus quite far from the vast majority of all d20 variants.

Actually D&D 3.5, D20 Modern, D20 Call of Ctulhu, D20 Mutants and Masterminds, etc. could all handle this one.

IIRC even Mutants and Masterminds has no explicit rules for handling a character who has no hands or even arms, though admittedly a Weakness or two might fit - but again, that's GM fiat. As for the others, to my knowledge none of them have any rules for such a player character right out of the book - whereas GURPS has.

Again, my point is not that d20 couldn't do these characters, but that d20 requires a lot more work on the part of the GM to do them.

D20 Mutants and Masterminds again when it comes to flexibility I doubt that you could get more flexible that M&M.

I think that GURPS 4E should fill that bill nicely...

You're too focused on d20 being just D&D and Modern. More companies produce d20 products and Green Ronin with Mutants and Masterminds has just the thing for all your examples, sure it's a super hero setting by hart but it's not limited to it. The d20 system at it's core is just as flexible as GURPS, d20 modern is not but it was never meant to be as flexible.

Sure it is flexible, but it does not form a coherent whole. If you take the whole of d20 - all the systems and supplements ever published for it - you might be able to create a wider range of characters than with the GURPS 4E Basic set. But even that is arguable. Even Mutants & Masterminds (like I said, a variety of the d20 System, and not a d20 system itself) does not allow for the sheer range of possible character types that GURPS 4E Basic does.

Feel free trying to convince me otherwise - I'm willing to listen to your arguments.

 

[Allanon]

<blink blink> You're absolutely right Jürgen, I forgot that M&M indeed doesn't use the d20 license. In which case I admit defeat .

Without M&M in the mix, d20 as it stands cannot produce the wide variety of possible characters GURPS can with just the basic books. Still I still think that M&M shows that d20 can, at it's core, be as flexible as GURPS. Although I know of no product which has shown d20's full potential, M&M does come close.

 

[Sir Elton]

<blink blink> You're absolutely right Jürgen, I forgot that M&M indeed doesn't use the d20 license. In which case I admit defeat .

Without M&M in the mix, d20 as it stands cannot produce the wide variety of possible characters GURPS can with just the basic books. Still I still think that M&M shows that d20 can, at it's core, be as flexible as GURPS. Although I know of no product which has shown d20's full potential, M&M does come close.

I do. BESMd20.

BESMd20 is the closest to the creative power of GURPS. If Steve Jackson did create GURPS d20, that would be too cool. But then, original GURPS may loose its appeal. Then again, it may not.

I have a dozen GURPS books which I use for d20 fantasy and d20 modern games. My next book I'm buying is GURPS Greece (I love Ancient Greece). Simply because of the fun factor. BESMd20 revolutionized the d20 System, mainly by adding a Ads/Disads system to the d20 System (called Attributes and Flaws, I think, I don't have the Ad20 SRD in front of me). They didn't divorce the game from levels, but the Ads/Disads add new levels to character creation. However, it sacrifices simplicity for complexity. But you can still get all the Character Concepts in d20 mentioned above.

BESMd20 is the closest to GURPS you can get using the d20 System. That's no lie. I looked at the SRD, and it's beautiful.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

BESMd20 is the closest to GURPS you can get using the d20 System. That's no lie. I looked at the SRD, and it's beautiful.

Well, one of the main forces behind BESM (and thus BESM d20, too) is David Pulver - who also happens to be one of the main authors of GURPS 4E...

 

[Sir Elton]

Yeah. But David Pulver worked for Guardians of Order first, and I think Mr. McKinnon wrote both BESM and BESM d20. David Pulver wrote BESM d20 Mecha, though.