I don't like Dragonborn: Please come and bring friends.

[mlund]

Print space in the main PHB is probably going to be a precious commodity, especially considering much much of the book Vancian Caster Spell List took up in previous editions now that they are making a comeback. Each race that gets in is going to need to carry its weight in terms of either Core Brand Identity common to the various world setting franchises (Core) or be a popular selling point (Modules).

The important part is to leave yourself easy design space for everything else!

Setting-specific stuff (Planescape, Ebberon, Dark-sun, Dragonlance) is more profitable (and orderly) to include in settings supplements.

Random leftovers (Goliaths, Shifters, Shadar-kai) can always be kept around to pad page-count for splat-books.

- Marty Lund

 

[Sunseeker]

Print space in the main PHB is probably going to be a precious commodity, especially considering much much of the book Vancian Caster Spell List took up in previous editions now that they are making a comeback. Each race that gets in is going to need to carry its weight in terms of either Core Brand Identity common to the various world setting franchises (Core) or be a popular selling point (Modules).

The important part is to leave yourself easy design space for everything else!

Setting-specific stuff (Planescape, Ebberon, Dark-sun, Dragonlance) is more profitable (and orderly) to include in settings supplements.

Random leftovers (Goliaths, Shifters, Shadar-kai) can always be kept around to pad page-count for splat-books.

- Marty Lund

Design space won't be too bad if they give us Pathfinder-sized books instead of those dinky little things we've gotten in the last 2 editions for 40+ bucks.

 

[OmegaMan950]

I like dragonborn, I'm ok with half-orcs (prefer the 4E origin backstory to previous editions having them be a product of orc raids), and I've had a player always begging to play a minotaur since the 2E humanoids book came out. Didn't matter what campaign or style of play, always came with a minotaur statted up and ready to roll. Monsters as PCs has always been a thing but it's only now we are seeing them being really balanced against other race options, and this is a step in the right direction. If that means monster PCs being in the PHB then I'm all for it.

3.X and 4e monster races were particularly bad about this, and it's been a while since I looked through the 2e Humanoid Handbook, but I don't remember it being much better.

4E monsters as PCs were only bad to begin with, the options in the back of the MM1 were to give those players who wanted gnomes as PC the option to do so without having to wait for the PHB2. The options were aimed at statting up NPCS, but were acceptable enough for players. Problems like large weapons and overpowered racial powers were quickly altered (Should have been looked at off the bat, I hate errata and updates but it's necessary)

Savage Species was poor, the whole LA and ECL thing was kludgy and terrible, and monster characters were disproportionately powered compared to LA +0 PCs of the same level. The 2E Humanoid handbook was a mixed bag - I was in favour of class restrictions then, not now so it's all in retrospect - but most monsters were limited to fighters, thieves, and some cleric/shaman options. Not many could make it into the double digit levels unless they were a fighter or had awesome stats in their prime ability which was almost always boosted by the racial bonuses. Some people were ok with this, my group ignored racial level restrictions

This is why I'd prefer to see monster PCs in the PHB, because only then will they get the benefit of balance and fair play in respect to other "normal" races instead of just being tacked on at a later date. Players who want monster PCs have always been with us, and they aren't going away anytime soon

 

[MacMathan]

Well if they are going to go with all the classes from the PHBs 1e-4e why not cover all the races from the same?

 

[Oni]

So, I'm not a fan of dragonborn, never have been. And while I have no hesitation in banning stuff I don't like from my game, I do feel there is a little truth to the idea that players see material in the PHB1 as more "legitimate" than material from other books; there's a certain expectation that it will be available for use.

Therefore, I have a solution. Dragonborn should be included in the PHB1. So should aasimar, dryads, vampires, werewolves, revenants, bariaurs, and a half dozen other curious beasties.

Why? Because I'm also not a fan of elves, dwarves, or halflings. I'm sick to death of lame Tolkien retreads. I'm not real fond of gnomes either. What I want is a wide array of choices, enough that I can pick out a full complement that fits the theme of whatever setting I create, without being shoehorned into Middle-Earth. And if there are plenty of races, it won't feel so limiting from the player's perspective when I give two-thirds of them the axe.

I realize there are space constraints, of course. But race writeups don't take up much room. My copy of the 3E Player's Handbook covers seven races in the space of nine pages. If those seven were expanded to twenty and the writeups compressed a bit, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Thoughts?

I would give you xp if I could, but I can't because I evidently need to spread it around or some such business.

Anyway I was just commenting in the other thread about dragonborn that:

My hope is they will include a lot of races (and classes) with very succinct, short write-ups. Races especially don't need a lot of fluff laid into their descriptions, since it's something that should change a fair bit from setting to setting. There should be just enough there to get you started, spur a few ideas, and hang a concept on. IMHO.

 

[Sunseeker]

Well if they are going to go with all the classes from the PHBs 1e-4e why not cover all the races from the same?

I'm pretty sure that's what they said they'd do.

 

[Hussar]

I haven't noticed this at all. Perhaps time for a separate poll with more options than yes/no? I've seen complaints from people saying that if something's in the PHB, the DM can't say "no", but never an accompanying claim or example to show that they are the DM who the players feel free to ignore.

If I had to guess, it's more of an issue of control. Steve and Jim play in Greg's campaign, and Steve hates dragonborn. Jim shows up to game with a dragonborn and Greg says "sure, whatever's in the PHB", now Steve is pissed. Steve wants to control what Jim plays, but can't.

Moreover, there seem to be a lot of people who want to make sure than when new gamers pick up these books for the first time, and introduce themselves to this hobby we all share, they want to make sure that new gamers don't get crazy ideas into their heads like "Dragonborn belong in D&D" or "Paladins can be any alignment". These people want to be sure that new gamers realize there is only ONE way to play TRUE D&D. . . THEIR WAY!

DMs don't need to have control issues, they're already in control. It's the people that can't control their fellow gamers that lash out in frustration.

I'd posrep this if I could, but, I think this is spot on. It's all about making sure that D&D remains "true to its roots" which, evidently, means we can only draw inspiration for the game from dead authors. Anything else is just for kids.

 

[CleverNickName]

It never felt like a DM vs player thing.

It's a Tradition vs Creativity thing.

Then by implication, you don't think Tradition and Creativity can coexist. You are entitled to your opinion, but I have never once found this to be true.

 

[CleverNickName]

If I had to guess, it's more of an issue of control. Steve and Jim play in Greg's campaign, and Steve hates dragonborn. Jim shows up to game with a dragonborn and Greg says "sure, whatever's in the PHB", now Steve is pissed. Steve wants to control what Jim plays, but can't.

I agree, but the opposite can also be true. Greg can say "sure, everything in the PHB except dragonborn" and now Jim is pissed because he thinks Greg is playing favorites.

Moreover, there seem to be a lot of people who want to make sure than when new gamers pick up these books for the first time, and introduce themselves to this hobby we all share, they want to make sure that new gamers don't get crazy ideas into their heads like "Dragonborn belong in D&D" or "Paladins can be any alignment". These people want to be sure that new gamers realize there is only ONE way to play TRUE D&D. . . THEIR WAY!

Again, I agree. And again, the opposite can also be true. Some people want to make sure that the "old guard" of players learn their lesson once and for all, that "Dragonborn belong in D&D" and that "Paladins can be any alignment." These people want to be sure that old gamers realize that there is only ONE way to play TRUE D&D...THEIR WAY!

 

[hafrogman]

Again, I agree. And again, the opposite can also be true. Some people want to make sure that the "old guard" of players learn their lesson once and for all, that "Dragonborn belong in D&D" and that "Paladins can be any alignment." These people want to be sure that old gamers realize that there is only ONE way to play TRUE D&D...THEIR WAY!

The difference, when it comes to game design, is that I'm not asking for paladins that can't be LG, or for a PHB that doesn't have elves. I'm asking the PHB to be inclusive so as to incorporate EVERYONE'S viewpoints. When someone comes along to say that the PHB shouldn't have this or that . . . that's not inclusive.