I don't like Dragonborn: Please come and bring friends.

[Hussar]

I agree, but the opposite can also be true. Greg can say "sure, everything in the PHB except dragonborn" and now Jim is pissed because he thinks Greg is playing favorites.

Again, I agree. And again, the opposite can also be true. Some people want to make sure that the "old guard" of players learn their lesson once and for all, that "Dragonborn belong in D&D" and that "Paladins can be any alignment." These people want to be sure that old gamers realize that there is only ONE way to play TRUE D&D...THEIR WAY!

However, there is a large difference though between having an open system with lots of options and a closed system with very few options. The paladin makes a perfect example of that. In AD&D, a paladin is an extremely restricted choice. And it's balanced by also being a very, very powerful one.

If you remove the alignment restrictions from a 1e paladin, you break the system. The class is too powerful to not have those restrictions. There's a reason that 3e paladins get toned down quite a bit (particularly compared to a 1e cavalier/paladin).

It's far, far easier to add restrictions than to try to come up with new stuff on your own. Here's fifteen options, all of them work. You can restrict the options picked as much as you want. Versus, here is one option, if you want more, go off and make your own.

Sorry, I don't want to play amateur game designer. The rules are not there to beat the players into submission. That's my job as the DM. If I don't want options X or Y in the game, that's entirely up to me. I'd much, much rather the game designers, let alone someone who is never even going to play at my table, telling me what my game should look like.

I honestly can't believe that any DM worth his salt would say differently. Do you honestly want Mike Mearls dictating your game to you? Do you want ME telling you what should and should not be in your game?

Or would you rather WOTC gives you as many options as humanly possible and then you can make up your mind about what is played at your table?

 

[Oni]

Again, I agree. And again, the opposite can also be true. Some people want to make sure that the "old guard" of players learn their lesson once and for all, that "Dragonborn belong in D&D" and that "Paladins can be any alignment." These people want to be sure that old gamers realize that there is only ONE way to play TRUE D&D...THEIR WAY!

I have to be honest, this doesn't really make a lot of sense, and it's not something I've ever seen. People typically want certain options excluded so other people can't have them, and people typically want certain options included so they can use those options themselves. There is a marked difference between the two.

 

[Incenjucar]

I agree, but the opposite can also be true. Greg can say "sure, everything in the PHB except dragonborn" and now Jim is pissed because he thinks Greg is playing favorites.

Again, I agree. And again, the opposite can also be true. Some people want to make sure that the "old guard" of players learn their lesson once and for all, that "Dragonborn belong in D&D" and that "Paladins can be any alignment." These people want to be sure that old gamers realize that there is only ONE way to play TRUE D&D...THEIR WAY!

In each case you can play humans, elves, and dwarves, and lawful good paladins, and you can refrain from playing dragonborn.

So no.

The opposite would only be be true if the PHB contained no humans, elves, or dwarves, and paladins could only be any non-LG alignment.

 

[CleverNickName]

I feel like I am getting off track here (and I feel like I am spamming the thread with too many posts).

For the record: I think dragonborn should be part of the core of 5E. I really do. I think it would be best if they were placed in the Monster Manual, though, instead of the Player's Handbook. This would allow them to "be core," and it would allow DMs to more easily regulate their influence in their campaign. Win/win. Some want them to be more visible, some want them to vanish forever...I think this is a good compromise.

I see that a couple of you feel the same way about all non-human races, and would relegate elves, dwarves, and haflings to the MM as well. I wouldn't mind that, personally, but I don't think it is feasible. They have to include some races in the PHB, after all, and it makes sense that they would limit it to only a half-dozen or so of the most popular (and least controversial).

In conclusion,

I'm not hating on the dragonborn.
I'm not complaining about my players (this time).
I'm neither endorsing nor condemning LotR.
I don't want to tell anyone how to play the game.
And in my humble opinion, dragonborn should join the gnome in the MM (and take several flavors of elf with him.)

 

[slobster]

They have to include some races in the PHB, after all, and it makes sense that they would limit it to only a half-dozen or so of the most popular (and least controversial).

In my humble opinion, dragonborn should join the gnome in the MM (and take several flavors of elf with him.)

As you say, a good compromise. I would prefer a whole mess of races in the PHB, as the OP suggested. I would however be almost as excited about a relatively robust section in the MM detailing how to play a whole bunch of new races not given full 2-page spreads in the PHB.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

And in my humble opinion, dragonborn should join the gnome in the MM (and take several flavors of elf with him.)

That's reasonable, assuming the MM contains a "full" listing of those races. The problem, again, is that the people that are offended by the dragonborn even being in the PHB are the same people that are offended by some combination of gnome, half-elf, half-orc, wood-elf, etc. not being in the PHB.


Try a poll. The same people that would be mostly ok with one of these will almost all be ok with the rest of them, perhaps with some minor deviations due to practical effects:

• Humans only in PHB, rest fully listed in MM.
• Humans, (high) elf, dwarf, hafling in PHB, rest fully listed in MM.
• All races from previous PHB (or equivalents) versions thus far (perhaps abbreviated for space), remaining info in MM (perhaps with additional races).

 

[Libramarian]

I don't really like the Dragonborn. It's not that I have anything against half-dragon type characters, I just don't like the way they look. They'd be alot cooler if they had wings, but they just couldn't give flight to a core race (though why not a slow fall or gliding ability?). I don't know, maybe if they are redesigned to look more dragon-like and less like bipedal monitor lizards, I'll like them better. The same goes for tieflings. I liked tieflings in the past, but the 4e ones went a bit overboard with the huge demon horns and 6 ft. long tails.

I'm all for putting the non-traditional races (dragonborn, tiefling, aasimar, drow, warforged, etc.) in the Monster Manual. That said, I'm not going to nerdrage if there are dragonborn or tieflings in the PHB. It really isn't that big of a deal.

I really do hate how they look, and I also dislike how they don't have any disadvantages. I mean why do they have a +2 Charisma? If you want to be a monster race you should take a hit to Charisma.

 

[Incenjucar]

I really do hate how they look, and I also dislike how they don't have any disadvantages. I mean why do they have a +2 Charisma? If you want to be a monster race you should take a hit to Charisma.

Why?

How does that even work?

What do you believe Charisma is in D&D?

 

[hafrogman]

I also dislike how they don't have any disadvantages.

Now we're getting in to race design, which is an entirely separate issue. No race in 4e had a penalty. You may not like that design decision, but you can't really call it a strike against the race itself.

 

[grimslade]

Player's options belong in a player's book, the monster manual is not a player's book. Anything non-human is monstrous from a human viewpoint. Humans are a step away from goblins and orcs to elves in a traditional elven view.

Playable races in the Player's section/book. Stuff you kill and take their stuff in the Monster Manual.