I don't like Dragonborn: Please come and bring friends.

[CleverNickName]

Player's options belong in a player's book, the monster manual is not a player's book. Anything non-human is monstrous from a human viewpoint. Humans are a step away from goblins and orcs to elves in a traditional elven view.

Playable races in the Player's section/book. Stuff you kill and take their stuff in the Monster Manual.

Are you suggesting we cannot kill dragonborn and take their stuff?

 

[Incenjucar]

Are you suggesting we cannot kill dragonborn and take their stuff?

Sure. And you can kill human paladins and take their stuff.

But the rules for playing one should be in a player's book.

 

[Ichneumon]

I don't like Dragonborn, but the Dragonborn like me.

While opinions on them differ (no kidding!), they could well be 4e's most popular gift to the D&D community. I'd be happy to see a wide range of races in the PHB, along with suggestions to the DM for subsets that can be picked to suit particular campaign styles. For example, a traditional Tolkien-inspired game might use the traditional 4 plus half-elves and half-orcs.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Remember the blog post last month where WotC said they were keeping Dragonborn in the PHB, but marked as a "rare" race so as not to upset traditionalists?

Did... did everyone forget about that?

 

[Libramarian]

Why?

How does that even work?

What do you believe Charisma is in D&D?

Because they resemble one of the most horrid and feared monsters in the game world....

Charisma means force of personality, but you are less able to apply this force if people have an instinctive bias against you because of the way you look.

I think I could like Dragonborn, if their visual design was reworked and they had more dramatic advantages and disadvantages, like the ability to fly or telepathy or something, and then a hit to Charisma. Maybe you're completely incapable of meaningful conversation with humans less than level 3 or less than 13 Int.

I support monster races but I would like the decision to be one to have a little more gravitas to it.

 

[slobster]

Remember the blog post last month where WotC said they were keeping Dragonborn in the PHB, but marked as a "rare" race so as not to upset traditionalists?

Did... did everyone forget about that?

I think the issue is a lot of people would rather trade in the rare dragonborn for two or three commons.

 

[hafrogman]

Because they resemble one of the most [-]horrid[/-] impressive and [-]feared[/-] revered monsters in the game world....

Revised for the fact that Dragons tend to have very high charisma scores.

 

[Incenjucar]

Because they resemble one of the most horrid and feared monsters in the game world....

If I looked like I could eat you, I'm pretty sure you would pay more attention to what I said, not less.

Charisma means force of personality, but you are less able to apply this force if people have an instinctive bias against you because of the way you look.

That bias is not universal, and when that bias is due to absolute terror, it would make it harder for you simply ignore them.

I think I could like Dragonborn, if their visual design was reworked and they had more dramatic advantages and disadvantages, like the ability to fly or telepathy or something, and then a hit to Charisma. Maybe you're completely incapable of meaningful conversation with humans less than level 3 or less than 13 Int.

That doesn't work within the system at all, and dragons in D&D are generally depicted as incredibly charismatic.

I support monster races but I would like the decision to be one to have a little more gravitas to it.

"Gravitas" is extremely difficult to balance, as we saw in 2E and 3E. In 4E, dragonborn could develop a long list of draconic abilities that no elf could access. It works pretty well.

 

[Derren]

Remember the blog post last month where WotC said they were keeping Dragonborn in the PHB, but marked as a "rare" race so as not to upset traditionalists?

Did... did everyone forget about that?

I really don't get this "rare" tag.

1. How common or rare a race is depends on the campaign setting
2. As the player can (usually) pick any race they want it doesn't matter if a race is rare when half the group plays it for example.

But I also don't get the hate for Dragonborn. Why?
Because the almighty Tolkien didn't include them in his "bible"?
Because they actually look different than humans and are not just a human with ear or high variations?
Because they have not been featured in X other editions?
Because there is no (yet) stereotype attached to them?
Because an artist screwed up?

Because they resemble one of the most horrid and feared monsters in the game world....

Charisma means force of personality, but you are less able to apply this force if people have an instinctive bias against you because of the way you look.

I think I could like Dragonborn, if their visual design was reworked and they had more dramatic advantages and disadvantages, like the ability to fly or telepathy or something, and then a hit to Charisma. Maybe you're completely incapable of meaningful conversation with humans less than level 3 or less than 13 Int.

I support monster races but I would like the decision to be one to have a little more gravitas to it.

And humans resemble orcs. Saying the dragonborn resemble dragons is as far fetched as saying humans resemble anything with a smooth skin. Actually its even more outrageous as dragonborn have a lot less limbs than dragons while humans have the same number of limbs as orcs.

Also, charisma is not subjective. A human does not suffer a charisma penalty when in the company of gnolls (after all gnolls would see humans as ugly). It represents the force of your personality.

Finally, why are dragonborn in your eyes a monster race and, for example, dwarves are not? Even though they look a lot like humans, dwarves are a different race and as alien, compared to a human, as dragonborn are.

 

[underfoot007ct]

I think the issue is a lot of people would rather trade in the rare dragonborn for two or three commons.

If you mean that people are being selfish, wanting everything their way. NO compromising. Then I say you might be right.

The other Dragonborn thread got shut down due to people NOT discussing, just arguing. I certainly want Dragonborn included.

WOTC plans to include all "PHB 1" classes from ALL edition, correct? So why are we beating a dead horse.