I don't understand beguilers

[ForceUser]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a neat idea for a class. But as far as I can tell, while a beguiler is adept at incapacitating enemies, he is absolutely incapable of killing them. Verses undead, he seems nearly as useless as a rogue, unless, like a rogue, he keeps maximum ranks in Use magic Device so he can use damage spells that are not on his class list.

Furthermore, what is the benefit to the surprise casting class feature when the class doesn't get a sneak attack progression? The beguiler can catch enemies flat-footed with spells. Okay. Is there any benefit to this that I am missing, other than perhaps lowering a dexterous opponent's AC for a touch attack?

I can see how this class works well as a member of a team, where the other characters dispatch the foes that the beguiler incapacitates. I can see how the class makes an excellent magical spy and trap finder. But the apparent lack of ability to end foes seems a glaring weakness to me. I want to like the class, but I can't see what a beguiler can do that an enchanter or illusionist couldn't do better. Why, for instance, would I use a beguiler as a BBEG when I can use a wizard?

What do you think?

 

[VirgilCaine]

Furthermore, what is the benefit to the surprise casting class feature when the class doesn't get a sneak attack progression? The beguiler can catch enemies flat-footed with spells. Okay. Is there any benefit to this that I am missing, other than perhaps lowering a dexterous opponent's AC for a touch attack?

He gets a progression of class features over time, +1 to DCs, +2 to DCs, +2 vs. SR, and at 20th level, ingoring SR, if the enemy has no dex bonus when he targets them.

 

[ForceUser]

He gets a progression of class features over time, +1 to DCs, +2 to DCs, +2 vs. SR, and at 20th level, ingoring SR, if the enemy has no dex bonus when he targets them.

That's not surprise casting, that's the cloaked casting feature.

 

[Umbran]

What do you think?

I think, in general, that not all things in the game have to be good in all situations. Balance is not about "I also need to be able to do what the fighter and wizard do, but different". If the Beguiler is really good at what it does, and that thing is generally useful, it can still be viable if it isn't good at dealing damage.

 

[ForceUser]

I think, in general, that not all things in the game have to be good in all situations. Balance is not about "I also need to be able to do what the fighter and wizard do, but different". If the Beguiler is really good at what it does, and that thing is generally useful, it can still be viable if it isn't good at dealing damage.

Would you use one as a BBEG?

 

[Victim]

That's not surprise casting, that's the cloaked casting feature.

Yeah. Cloaked casting gives them benefits when they opponents w/o Dex with spells, while

Surprise Casting gives them the ability to deny their opponents Dex so that the first ability can function. They need both of them. Normally, feinting only works for melee attacks, that's why they need Surprise Casting to broaden its applicability.

A Beguiler seems like a good behind the scenes BBEG. Their enchantments and social abilities mean that can easily take charge of organizations, have allies, or get third parties to do their dirty work.

 

[Seeten]

Beguilers would work better as the BBEG's Lt's, rather than as the BBEG himself, I'd say.

As a PC, its a sneak in, get what you need, sneak out class, not a sneak in, slit all the throats, sneak out class. IMO.

With Advanced Learning, you can get the shadow evocations/conjurations, I believe.

 

[Piratecat]

I'd play a changeling beguiler in a heartbeat.

They get great skill points, and lots of spells that they automatically know, and can manipulate other people into doing their dirty work. I think I'd have a lot of fun with one as a PC.

 

[Henry]

I'd play a changeling beguiler in a heartbeat.

They get great skill points, and lots of spells that they automatically know, and can manipulate other people into doing their dirty work. I think I'd have a lot of fun with one as a PC.

Based on what you've told us in the past of Tremere's TomTom Badgerclaw, a similar character as a changeling beguiler would rule the frikkin' world.

I will say, I'd have a hard time fitting a character into a game with lots of "smash 'n grab" and very little roleplay or intrigue.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I will say, I'd have a hard time fitting a character into a game with lots of "smash 'n grab" and very little roleplay or intrigue.

As would I. But I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. I think it would be a mistake to assume that everything presented--even by core/semi-core sources--should all be designed to fit into the exact same campaign or type of game.