D&D 5E I don't understand the reasoning behind D&Dnext

[Dornam]

I expected for D&Dnext to keep the sharp concise 4e rules of the abilities/spells in battle and add more "roleplayish" rules to them to use out of battle basically being a sequel to 4e with a homage to 3e added on making this somehow possible by a genius strike of rules design.

But instead D&Dnext seems to do away with almost everything 4e stands for and tries to position itself as 3.75e and thus as an alternative to 3.5/Pathfinder.

I think this is a rather bad idea as it will alienate a good portion of the fanbase that stayed with WotC for 4e and maybe don't get a lot of the ones back that left because so far I do not see the awesomeness that will people cause to abolish 3e/Pathfinder in favor of D&Dnext.

Or am I getting something wrong?

 

[Raith5]

While I see what you mean I think 4th ed game ideas are lurking beneath some of the game elements already present. Personally I think some of these elements like hit dice (healing surges), expertise dice (combat powers) are still works in progress - but keep in mind that here we comparing an early beta in DDN versus a mature game in 4th.

There will also various elements that are clearly going to being extra modules that will come at some point. Things like second wind, action points, utility power/abilities and skill challenges could easily be overlaid on the current DDN rules. Personally, after using these elements in 4th they are things that I cannot do without.

 

[Ahnehnois]

But instead D&Dnext seems to do away with almost everything 4e stands for

They're trying to make a "unification edition of D&D". That pretty much comes with the territory. I'd prefer to look at it as trying to bring back everything the rest of D&D stands for.

That being said, at the moment it looks more like a 2e/4e hybrid than a 3.75 (which incidentally, already exists).

They still haven't even attempted to actually continue revising and advancing the OGL edition and most widely played version of this game.

 

[Yora]

But instead D&Dnext seems to do away with almost everything 4e stands for and tries to position itself as 3.75e and thus as an alternative to 3.5/Pathfinder.

That's exactly what I see as well.

4th Edition did not turn out as expected, so it's back to the end of 3rd Edition and we start all over with making a new successor to it.

Which quite a considerable number of people seem to highly appreciate. I didn't care for 4th and I wouldn't care for a new version of it. But a new version of 3rd Edition that is stripped of elements that were not really such a great improvement over 2nd Edition is just what I've wanted for almost 10 years.

 

[B.T.]

Or am I getting something wrong?

You are.

To be blunt, WotC pooped the bed. They told the old 3e fanbase their ideas were outdated and they needed to, like, get with the times. 3e is junk; 4e is what's hot! Turns out that 3e players didn't like being told they had poor taste, especially after they had invested money into 3.0, the blatant moneygrab of 3.5, and a host of poor-quality splatbooks (including the infamous Complete Psionic). Meanwhile, Paizo published Pathfinder and scooped up a good portion of the 3e fanbase, and WotC continued to garner ill will through PR blunders such as cancelling Dragon magazine, tight-lipped development, and those awful animated shorts. When 4e was published, sales figures weren't quite what they should be. Years passed, and it was speculated that 4e wasn't doing so well, but this was hotly denied by the WotC Internet Defense Squad. Finally, it came to light that 4e was not raking in enough money and that Pathfinder was. That ain't good for WotC, so they're in full panic mode, trying to regain the public trust (and the money of the old 3e fanbase) by ditching the majority of 4e design innovations in favor of a more traditionalist style of game.

That's why you're not seeing much of 4e in 5e.

Mod Note: Please see my note later in the thread. ~Umbran

 

[Obryn]

Well, Dornam, here's the thing... And I say this as a guy who finds 4e to be a nearly ideal system for him, and who plans to continue playing 4e for years to come.

If Next is to be successful, just converting 80% of the 4e fanbase isn't enough. They also need to recapture people who are still playing 3.x in some form (be it PF or WotC) and ideally people who are playing even older editions.

I'd rather have a 4.5 myself, but I don't think that's a winning strategy for WotC right now.

-O

 

[Remathilis]

At the risk of sounding edition warring, there was little of 4e worth saving.

The power system was a bust: Essentials showed that it was on the way out. Healing surges were reviled, the math system didn't work as advertised, and the major changes in classes, races, magic, and fluff alienated large swaths of former fans. You can argue with me 4e is a good system, and I'll argee it works for you, but the Pathfinder sales, the word of mouth and internet commentary, and apparently WotC's own internal numbers (which obviously wasn't rosy as we're discussing Next a scant three years after 4e) shows 4e didn't work, and when something doesn't work, why keep going?

They went back to the last edition that was successful (3.5) and started again. They took some nods for 4e, as well a few from earlier editions, and began anew. Good for them. It takes balls to admit your last edition was failure and didn't do what you wanted it to, and that you're basically going backwards to loop around and go forwards.

I also assumed 4e was going to be a cleaned up and revised Essentials. I'm pleasantly surprised its not and that is D&D I'm willing to play.

 

[Rhenny]

They will be including a "Tactical Combat" portion to the game. I'm sure that that will draw heavily from 4e. It will give groups more precision and more rules. Groups will decide when and where to use it in their own campaigns.

 

[filthgrinder]

At the risk of sounding edition warring, there was little of 4e worth saving.

Except, there is a lot of 4E in Next, and that's a good thing. 4E did bring in a bunch of good ideas. The execution is where most people had problems with them. However, D&D:Next so far shows off a lot of 4E brought to the table, but in a smaller dosage. Backgrounds and Specialties are a direct evolution from 4E's backgrounds and themes.

Hit Dice are healing surges. Combat Expertise dice are encounter powers. Minor spells are at-wills. These are 4E innovations in a game with a 2E feel on the framework of 3E's solid base.

4E threw out a lot of the baby with the bathwater, because honestly the bathwater needed changing, but there was a lot of over correction and changes because the developers wanted to put their own marks on it.

I think it's funny to see some threads by 4E players going, "ugh, they got rid of all 4E!" and then threads by older edition players going, "ugh, they put too much 4E crap in!"

Which leads me to think it's a good mix.

 

[Maggan]

They told the old 3e fanbase their ideas were outdated and they needed to, like, get with the times. 3e is junk; 4e is what's hot! Turns out that 3e players didn't like being told they had poor taste, especially after they had invested money into 3.0, the blatant moneygrab of 3.5, and a host of poor-quality splatbooks (including the infamous Complete Psionic).

Funny, WotC never told me that. But then again, they don't speak personally to me that much anymore, after that incident at that christmas party all those years ago.

/M