I hate game balance!

[Zil]

If you hate game balance that much just play a 1st level character in a game where everyone else is playing a 10th level character. Surely you would love the experience...?

I think what the original poster really hates is the blandness in how the game balance was achieved. There ought to have been a way to balance things levels 1-30 for all classes without making the classes almost identical mechanically.

 

[Rechan]

There ought to have been a way to balance things levels 1-30 for all classes without making the classes almost identical mechanically.

"Identical mechanically" is subject to opinion.

 

[mmu1]

Then apparently you and I have a different definition of what an asshat is.

Probably. I'd say in the situation you describe, the people who decide to play the fighter even though they resent the ones playing the Cleric or the Wizard are the asshats.

As for "stop complaining"... Sorry, I don't particularly feel like letting people get shouted down in the General forum for trying to have a discussion about the flaws of 4E.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I've got some questions for those who hate game balance:

—How do you keep all classes relevant at every level?
—How do you keep all the characters relevant at any time?
—How do you deal with the uselessness of low-level abilities aquired at high levels?
—What about new DMs who probably can't make everyone shine effectively?

Answer:

- Demand the best out of your players. (If they do not give their best, kill their characters.)
- Demand the best out of your players. (If they do not give their best, kill their characters.)
- Grant high-level abilities at high level.
- Give the DM a chance, since it takes time and effort to become a good DM.

When everyone is caught in a desperate struggle for survival, they have no time or energy to bitch, whine, moan, complain, or be jealous of each other's powers, abilities, and items.
If they refuse to struggle for survival, to earn victory, to achieve success through effort, then I will not DM for them.

'Balance' is not a substitute for Good Play. The only substitute for Good Play is Even Better Play.

Edena_of_Neith

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I now invite the 4E lovers here to tell me that my opinion is wrong. Show me why game balance is necessary, because, as you know better than I do, my opinion is not correct!

Your opinions are only that: yours. Sorry you don't like the game, but I don't feel compelled to correct you.

 

[Rechan]

the people who decide to play the fighter even though they resent the ones playing the Cleric or the Wizard are the asshats.

... What?

So feeling outshined is asshat behavior?

As for "stop complaining"... Sorry, I don't particularly feel like letting people get shouted down in the General forum for trying to have a discussion about the flaws of 4E.

Because saying "If you like aspect x, here is a system that provides you with X" is shouting you down.

 

[Zil]

I've got some questions for those who hate game balance:

I don't hate game balance, but I'll answer anyway!

—How do you keep all classes relevant at every level?

With work! Or just stay away from very high level stuff. I assume we're talking about 3.x D&D?

—How do you keep all the characters relevant at any time?

With difficulty. Pay attention to who is getting a chance to shine and who is not in your games and try and introduce more elements for those who are not shining as brightly.

—How do you deal with the uselessness of low-level abilities aquired at high levels?

What does this have to do with balance?

—What about new DMs who probably can't make everyone shine effectively?

Well, for that hopefully there are some good introductory adventures out there that show how to achieve this so that the new DM can learn to be a good DM.

 

[mmu1]

... What?
So feeling outshined is asshat behavior?

Doing something you knew you weren't going to like and then pouting about it is.

Because saying "If you like aspect x, here is a system that provides you with X" is shouting you down.

No, it's not, but plenty of the posts in the first couple of the pages of the thread are.

Besides, maybe I already know what system I like, and just want to have a discussion.

 

[Remathilis]

I think what the original poster really hates is the blandness in how the game balance was achieved. There ought to have been a way to balance things levels 1-30 for all classes without making the classes almost identical mechanically.

I'm sure there are. I'm not sure what they would be.

The problem really comes down to options and effectiveness. Spellcasters have more options to solve problems than non-spellcasters do. A brief example.

In one adventure, you find your going to a dank, dark dungeon. You prep the typical spells: light, fireball, knock, etc. Once you get there, you find the dungeon is mostly natural cavern (no doors) and the foes are mostly azers and fire giants (immune to fire). What do you do? Swap out fireball for some other damage dealing spell, swap knock for levitate, and 24 hours later your are ultra-effective at your job.

The rogue? He's less flexible. He can't rest 24 hours and swap his ranks in Open Lock for ranks in Climb now that he knows he's climbing natural cave walls rather than picking locks. The ranger can't swap his FE: Goblinoids for FE: Giants now that he knows he's facing the critters. The fighter can't swap out Improved Trip for Mobility now that he knows he's fighting huge monsters with reach?

Similarly, there is no fighter ability that can kill a 294 hp dragon in one single die roll. I can count several wizard spells that can do so. Nor can a fighter do 150 damage in a single (touch) attack, but a cleric can. Whose the better combatant now?

So perhaps a bit of sacrifice on behalf of the casters was needed to level the play field for noncasters. I say good to them. The more the fun gets spread around, the more fun we all have...

 

[Rechan]

Doing something you knew you weren't going to like and then pouting about it is.

How does the fighter player know they're going to not like it until they're twelve levels in the game and realize they're sitting back seat to the cleric or wizard?

If the system is made for CoDzilla to beat fighter ass, then what, "Sorry Bill, but you're going to have to play the fighter so the wizard doesn't get squished before he can nuke the troll"?