I hate monks

[shilsen]

Except that fighting that well without weapons, moving that fast, etc. are intrinsically magical. When people can shoot magical bolts of fire out of their hands, D&D has to provide a magical explanation otherwise suspension of disbelief collapses. The same is true of people running up walls, etc. You can't sell the monk without the ki/chi. Any ability the monk has that is not simply a consequence of being really really really strong is essentially a magical ability. The monk doesn't become more credible shorn of flavour text anymore than the sorceror would.

But in the D&D world, the monk abilities that you reference are explicitly non-magical. The flurry of blows and fast movement abilities are both Extraordinary abilities, which means they work even in an antimagic field. The same is true for the Still Mind, Slow Fall, Purity of Body and a few other abilities.

The D&D game world has a number of non-magical effects which would seem impossible according to the rules of physics (and biology, chemistry, etc) in ours, but which are just fine there. A creature the weight of a griffon can't get off the ground with its wingspan in our world, and that is much more so the case with a dragon. But these creatures don't have to use any magical power to fly. It's a purely natural ability.

Unless you house-rule all such abilities to make them Su or Sp, it seems a little harsh to specifically pick the monk out as having abilities which must be magical to be explained.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

But in the D&D world, the monk abilities that you reference are explicitly non-magical. The flurry of blows and fast movement abilities are both Extraordinary abilities, which means they work even in an antimagic field. The same is true for the Still Mind, Slow Fall, Purity of Body and a few other abilities.

Not true. Fast movement over 60 feet is supernatural. It would break suspension of disbelief if it were not, anyway. Same with being immune to disease and healing damage quickly. Even if WotC says they're not magical, players believe they're magical.

The D&D game world has a number of non-magical effects which would seem impossible according to the rules of physics (and biology, chemistry, etc) in ours, but which are just fine there. A creature the weight of a griffon can't get off the ground with its wingspan in our world, and that is much more so the case with a dragon. But these creatures don't have to use any magical power to fly. It's a purely natural ability.

A griffon is not a human being. And a griffon is a magical beast.

Now it isn't praticularly practical for a pesant to plow his fields with a longsword at his belt, a shield across his back and a chain halburk on so it would only make sence that the long lived pesants would eventually evolve an effective efficant method of defending themselves from orc and goblin raiders either without weapons or with simple farm implements.

Where do they learn all these mystical abilities from?

 

[WayneLigon]

That's a pretty cool idea, actually. I'm seeing four rival orders of monks, all of which have similar (if not identical) abilities, but very different beliefs and practices.

Or even flip the idea on it's back and go with the Oriental five elements: Wood, Metal, Air, Fire, Water Because the idea of a Wood Elf Wood 'Monk' is a scary, scary thing. (I am one with the forest. The whisper of the trees is my breath. The strength of the oak is in my arms. The swiftness of the rapids in my feet...)

Dang. If I knew layout, that might be cool enough to create a PDF for....

 

[ForceUser]

Or even flip the idea on it's back and go with the Oriental five elements: Wood, Metal, Air, Fire, Water Because the idea of a Wood Elf Wood 'Monk' is a scary, scary thing. (I am one with the forest. The whisper of the trees is my breath. The strength of the oak is in my arms. The swiftness of the rapids in my feet...)

That's a cool character idea, Wayne. Consider it yoinked.

 

[fusangite]

But in the D&D world, the monk abilities that you reference are explicitly non-magical. The flurry of blows and fast movement abilities are both Extraordinary abilities, which means they work even in an antimagic field. The same is true for the Still Mind, Slow Fall, Purity of Body and a few other abilities.

I think we're in apples and oranges territory here Shilsen. We could create psionic classes (for all I know they already exist; I hate psionics and never use them) for whom casting fireball is non-magical from a rules standpoint. But that doesn't alter the fact that without attached flavour text justifying it, the class would have no credibility in most game worlds. It is the effects and justifications for abilities that regulate suspension of disbelief, not what rule category is used for them mechanically.

 

[helium3]

It's different because druid, barbarian or paladin all fit a Western Medieval D&D campaign.

Why does D&D have to "fit" a "western medieval" setting? Seems to me that the game system is flexible enough to allow a good DM to create any sort of setting he wants, be it western, eastern, northern or southern?

This is a group troll, right?

 

[fusangite]

Why does D&D have to "fit" a "western medieval" setting?

I don't think anyone here is speaking proscriptively. We are speaking descriptively. D&D's core rules, at present, are overwhelmingly Western in character. That's why my position is that either (a) the monk should be removed from the core and consigned to Oriental Adventures or (b) the core rules should be overhauled so they are no longer overwhelmingly Western and the monk can fit in. Either option is good. The present situation is not.

Seems to me that the game system is flexible enough to allow a good DM to create any sort of setting he wants, be it western, eastern, northern or southern?

Agreed. Hence Indian, Mesoamerican, Chinese, etc. character archetypes appearing in other supplemental D20 material.

This is a group troll, right?

No more than your message is.

 

[fusangite]

I specifically posted that I was not accusing anyone of racism. Open mouth, insert foot.

Most accusations of racism, like most racist epithets themsleves, are similarly presented e.g. "I'm not calling you a racist but..."

 

[shilsen]

Not true. Fast movement over 60 feet is supernatural. It would break suspension of disbelief if it were not, anyway. Same with being immune to disease and healing damage quickly. Even if WotC says they're not magical, players believe they're magical.

That's a broad assumption. I'm a player (okay, admittedly very rarely) and I don't believe they're magical. And if I polled my two groups of players, I'm betting at least a few of them wouldn't believe they're magical either.

A griffon is not a human being. And a griffon is a magical beast.

With, as is true for many magical beasts, no magical abilities whatsoever.

I think we're in apples and oranges territory here Shilsen. We could create psionic classes (for all I know they already exist; I hate psionics and never use them) for whom casting fireball is non-magical from a rules standpoint. But that doesn't alter the fact that without attached flavour text justifying it, the class would have no credibility in most game worlds. It is the effects and justifications for abilities that regulate suspension of disbelief, not what rule category is used for them mechanically.

I think it also comes down to where one draws the line for credibility and also from what point one approaches the rules, I think. I understand what you're saying and why. But from my perspective, in a world where a mid-level archer (let's say Ftr6) can pick up a mundane, non-magical bow and fire three arrows in six seconds (and by 20th lvl he's up to 5), the laws of reality have already been immutably changed. A mid-level character can jump off a 200 ft cliff, hit the ground, and walk away. D&D is in many ways a superhero game in a fantasy environment, and for me, the monk fits in well with that. I do agree that it might fit in better with somewhat different flavor text and the same mechanics.

 

[Ranger REG]

The what? The AD&D Monk was in no way ever meant to resemble any European monastic order.

LOL!

IIRC, Gary Gygax -- or one of the co-founders -- was a big fan of Kwai Chang Caine of the Kung Fu TV series. The monk class of 1e was inspired by that and a host of Martial Arts Matinee films of the 70's.

The only known 1e class that resemebles the European monks is the Cloistered Cleric.