D&D 5E (2014) I hate rapiers. Do you?

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] Though I'm only on the periphery of Western Martial Arts (more of a taiji/qigong guy), from the more more experienced WMA guys I've spoken with it's not unreasonable to consider a skilled rapier wielder and a skilled longsword wielder pretty evenly matched against one another.

[video=youtube;6r7VWIQCHvM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7VWIQCHvM[/video]

In game terms, the greatness of Dexterity is systemic, but can be mitigated by the GM by...

• including more Strength savings throws (and Charisma and Intelligence too!)
• making combat situations where grappling/shoving (Strength checks) can be critically helpful
• setting up environmental challenges that need to be climbed, jumped, pulled, bended, lifted, etc.

If it's the aesthetic of a Renaissance rapier that's a problem for you, recall that the original historic term "rapier" also included the side sword, which looks a bit meatier for the purpose of stabbing things and leaving thicker wounds. Also, modern "practice rapiers" are more flexible than a historical killing rapier which took a lot more force to flex the strong blade.

[video=youtube;A-CgXTNCNPU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-CgXTNCNPU[/video]

And if the entire idea of a slender rapier being used to pierce dragon hide and slay minotaurs doesn't feel right, you could always reintroduce the AD&D rule about each weapon dealing different damage versus Medium and smaller targets vs. Large and larger targets. Rapier might deal less damage against a Large+ target, whereas a longsword might deal more damage against a Large+ target.

 

[Manbearcat]

So, the title says it all in this case.

<snip>

But Rapiers are nothing more than wannabe Katanas.

This is good analysis and I, of course, agree.

However, I don't think it digs deep enough.

Consider.

Rapiers are the marriage of two of the most widely detested components of human history; Rape and the IRS.

 

[discosoc]

Rapiers being finesse d8 just means there's no real choice in weapon if you make a finesse melee fighter. It should have just been rolled up into the shortsword and let the player skin it as a rapier if they really want to. Of course, this is the game system that thinks "studded leather" is real.

 

[Satyrn]

Rapiers being finesse d8 just means there's no real choice in weapon if you make a finesse melee fighter.

I see that as an argument for more finesse weapons, not less as you conclude.

 

[discosoc]

I see that as an argument for more finesse weapons, not less as you conclude.

That would go against the general theme of 5e. I don't think many people are wanting to go back to the days of 40 specific weapon types with varying degrees of effectiveness against different armor. Finesse melee weapons should be d6; let the player choose how it looks or if it's s/b/p. Making one such weapon a d8 just means that's the obvious best and only choice. If you make more d8 finesse weapons for the sake of choice, what's the purpose of the d6 versions? All you did increase the typical damage of the category and rendered the existing d6 options even more useless.

 

[werecorpse]

The d6 finesse weapons are also light. The d8 finesse weapon is not. So if you want to be a dual wielder you use the d6 - they are not useless just use specific (as is the d8 finesse weapon).
The problem as I see it is that there is choice for the d6 light finesse weapon (shortsword or scimitar) but no choice for the d8 non-light finesse weapon (rapier) - an easy fix is to introduce choice by introducing a d8 non-light finesse slashing weapon, call it a falchion.

 

[Roadkill101]

After reading through most of the thread, I'd say the real issues with any certain weapon vs. mechanical implication is mostly about the (beholders personal) image of a particular weapon compared to the given mechanics (damage die, especially). It seems to me the root cause of this disconnect is mostly a matter of later editions of the game embracing individual weapon damages as opposed to leaving such matters as an optional rule where all weapons use a single die for damage (i.e OD&D and B/X) per RAW.

 

[Eubani]

I think the D8 is not such the issue but instead how useful and overused Dex is. Initiative, Ranged attack, Ranged Damage, AC, Some of the most important skills that are often used and probably the most used save that can reduce a lot of damage. The designers should of looked at farming some of this out or providing options that bring the other stats up to par. In this area I believe the designers were both lazy and ignorant.

 

[werecorpse]

Woah lazy and ignorant? The Dex v Str argument is for another thread. I haven't checked but I'm sure there's one here somewhere.

 

[Eubani]

Woah lazy and ignorant? The Dex v Str argument is for another thread. I haven't checked but I'm sure there's one here somewhere.

Dex has everything to do with this due to finesse and it is more like Dex Vs any stat.