D&D 5E I hate rapiers. Do you?

[Satyrn]

Now imagine if there was a suddenly a one-handed weapon for those STR based fighters that did d10 damage...

See, by making an entire class of weapons stick to one dice type and then having a single exception use a better dice type, you've rendered the bulk of options strictly worse. Why even have shortswords in the game if a rapier can fill the same roll but does as much damage as a longsword? Mechanically speaking, what was the point of including short swords or clubs or daggers or basically any finesse weapon other than rapiers?

I really think you're conflating "finesse" with "light." Any martial non-light finesse weapon would be 1d8, just like the rapier. And that's why I think you're presenting a case for more finesse weapons - or removing finesse as a property entirely and just letting Dex apply to light weapons.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I really think you're conflating "finesse" with "light." Any martial non-light finesse weapon would be 1d8, just like the rapier. And that's why I think you're presenting a case for more finesse weapons - or removing finesse as a property entirely and just letting Dex apply to light weapons.

I don't think he's confusing finesse with light. They are two different things. Take the Handaxe. It's short enough that it can be wielded in tandem with another light weapon, but it's center of mass is far enough away from the hand that it takes greater strength to wield so it cannot be "finessed".

I see discosocs point as follows: If I have proficiency in Shortswords (or say Scimitars) and Rapiers I will always take the Rapier since the damage die is higher, unless I'm playing a specific character concept, or I mean to dual wield without taking the dual wielder feat. Contrast that with having Battleaxe and Longsword proficiencies or Halberd and Glaive proficiencies. Here there is no mechanically better option so I'm free to use the one that fits my character without making a mechanical sacrifice.

You could handle this by making more d8 Finesse options like you said, but like many I think that dex already has a bit of a leg up on strength, so dropping the Rapier to a d6 makes more sense to me. While I'm at it I might add a martial d8/d10 non finesse piercing weapon like a Versatile Warpick or the previously mentioned Estoc.

 

[Hussar]

The reasons, all of which are entirely subjective personal opinion, I loathe rapier are:
1) Regardless of historical accuracy (about which, honestly, I couldn't care less), the word "rapier" evokes a weapon which feels anachronistic in the setting I like to envision.
2) If it only showed up every now and then maybe I'd be ok with it, but it seems like every single rogue and bard shows up with it. Never mind dual-wielding them. Ugh.
3) Dexadins are just...horrible.

And this is the problem when you introduce something that isn't quite balanced against everything else. If X is strictly better than Y then people will choose X. That's just logical. So, yup, you never see a sword and mace wielder (unless it has something to do with class proficiencies). Every two handed weapon user uses a great sword or a great axe (although we do have a maul user in our group ). And every Dex Monkey uses a rapier if the option is available.

No different than bows really. There's a reason you almost never see heavy crossbows in the game. A bow is just outright a better weapon.

These (relatively minor) imbalances lead to cookie cutter characters where everyone looks the same. You could cut half the weapons on the 5e equipment list and virtually no one would notice.

 

[Caliburn101]

I don't think he's confusing finesse with light. They are two different things. Take the Handaxe. It's short enough that it can be wielded in tandem with another light weapon, but it's center of mass is far enough away from the hand that it takes greater strength to wield so it cannot be "finessed".

I see discosocs point as follows: If I have proficiency in Shortswords (or say Scimitars) and Rapiers I will always take the Rapier since the damage die is higher, unless I'm playing a specific character concept, or I mean to dual wield without taking the dual wielder feat. Contrast that with having Battleaxe and Longsword proficiencies or Halberd and Glaive proficiencies. Here there is no mechanically better option so I'm free to use the one that fits my character without making a mechanical sacrifice.

You could handle this by making more d8 Finesse options like you said, but like many I think that dex already has a bit of a leg up on strength, so dropping the Rapier to a d6 makes more sense to me. While I'm at it I might add a martial d8/d10 non finesse piercing weapon like a Versatile Warpick or the previously mentioned Estoc.

No - it is WoTC who are in fact confusing the rapier as a finesse weapon that isn't light - they are light - ESPECIALLY compared to the other non-light options for one handed weapon.

 

[Horwath]

DnD should get rid of simple/martial split. dagger is simple yet shortsword is martial? Are they really that different?

Then you could have this for melee weapons.


1Handed weapons;

1d10 damage; battle axe, warhammer, (long)sword,

1d8 damage, light; hand axe, sabre...

1d8 damage, finesse; rapier,

1d6 damage, light, finesse; short sword, scimitar, dagger,....

1d8 damage, reach; spear,

1d6 damage, reach, finesse;...

1d6 damage, light, reach; Light?spear?

1d4 damage, light, reach, finesse; whip,....


2Handed weapons;

2d6 damage; waraxe, trident,...

2d8 damage, heavy; greatsword,greataxe, maul,...

1d12 damage, finesse; elven courtblade,...

1d10 damage, finesse, reach; spiked chain,...

1d12 damage, reach; partisan(heavy spear),....

2d6 damage, reach, heavy; glaive, poleax, bec de corbin, guisarme,...

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

No - it is WoTC who are in fact confusing the rapier as a finesse weapon that isn't light - they are light - ESPECIALLY compared to the other non-light options for one handed weapon.

Depending upon what weapon comes to your mind when you think of a 'rapier', they may not be that much lighter. You need to remember that 'light' in 5e D&D isn't much to do with weight, and all to do with how easy it is to use that weapon simultaneously with another weapon in the other hand. While there are schools of fence that deal in using two rapiers, they are relatively unusual, and can be represented by the dual-wielder feat.
Or just using shortsword stats to represent the smaller, more wieldy blade that you might be visualising.

DnD should get rid of simple/martial split. dagger is simple yet shortsword is martial? Are they really that different?

Yes. The dagger is a tool that practically everyone in the setting will have experience of using, even if they haven't been in actual fights. The shortsword is a weapon, and thus only those with military or other combat training are likely to have been trained with it.

The 5e weapons table seems to mostly be put together from commonsense and what the weapon is, rather than some carefully-budgeted points system.
Thus you have things like Tridents for example, which aren't very good weapons, but are considered martial because they are harder to use as a weapon.

 

[Horwath]

Depending upon what weapon comes to your mind when you think of a 'rapier', they may not be that much lighter. You need to remember that 'light' in 5e D&D isn't much to do with weight, and all to do with how easy it is to use that weapon simultaneously with another weapon in the other hand. While there are schools of fence that deal in using two rapiers, they are relatively unusual, and can be represented by the dual-wielder feat.
Or just using shortsword stats to represent the smaller, more wieldy blade that you might be visualising.

Yes. The dagger is a tool that practically everyone in the setting will have experience of using, even if they haven't been in actual fights. The shortsword is a weapon, and thus only those with military or other combat training are likely to have been trained with it.

The 5e weapons table seems to mostly be put together from commonsense and what the weapon is, rather than some carefully-budgeted points system.
Thus you have things like Tridents for example, which aren't very good weapons, but are considered martial because they are harder to use as a weapon.

Then you have expirience with dagger as a tool, not as a weapon. It's different.

Swinging a baseball bat or a hammer is the same. Both have mass at the end of the lever and deliver damage via concussion.

Also I do not want to penalize players with reduced performance for cool character concepts.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Switching rapier to d6 kind of solves everything. Then Dex characters (generally) have the choice between Scimitar, Rapier, and Short Sword, for whatever flavor they want.

 

[Satyrn]

Switching rapier to d6 kind of solves everything. Then Dex characters (generally) have the choice between Scimitar, Rapier, and Short Sword, for whatever flavor they want.

But the rapier would be mechanically inferior to the scimitar and short sword at that point, since it lacks the light quality, so it just be another trident. And if you made it light, then it would be statistically identical to the short sword and such overlap is kind of pointless.

And making it light means there are no non-light martial finesse weapons.

So I'd say doing so - making it d6 - only solves it for the "I don't like the rapier and want it out of the game," shoving it off in the garbage dump with the warlord.

 

[Guest 6801328]

So I'd say doing so - making it d6 - only solves it for the "I don't like the rapier and want it out of the game," shoving it off in the garbage dump with the warlord.

Exactly.