D&D 5E I hate rapiers. Do you?

  • Thread starter Thread starter lowkey13
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Do you like the way 5e has handled rapiers?

  • Absolutely not! I hate, hate, hate the way 5e has handled rapiers.

    Votes: 50 21.6%
  • I dislike 5e rapiers so much I have houseruled a nerf on them.

    Votes: 17 7.4%
  • I like rapiers, and I eat paste.

    Votes: 89 38.5%
  • I only participate in polls with leading questions.

    Votes: 75 32.5%

Then you have expirience with dagger as a tool, not as a weapon. It's different.
Yep. If you really want to play someone who has never been in a fight, you can do so, but I think that it is assumed that PCs have at least seen enough that they have a basic concept of how to use the weapons with which they are proficient.

Swinging a baseball bat or a hammer is the same. Both have mass at the end of the lever and deliver damage via concussion.
Knowing how to use them as a weapon rather than just being able to swing with them however is very different. - Reflecting actually having proficiency rather than using it non-proficient.
Their length, weight distribution and impact performance are different. I think that its assumed that most people will have enough experience in using/fighting with simple weapons like clubs and tool hammers to be considered proficient. However unless they have more advanced training they've probably never tried to use (for example) a warhammer - which is a purely military weapon.

The actual definition of weapons can be fuzzy: At what point does a dagger become a shortsword for example? I believe that they're left that way deliberately to give players the freedom to have their characters generally use the weapon that they visualise them using - within some boundaries.

Also I do not want to penalize players with reduced performance for cool character concepts.
That is what DM empowerment and houserules are all about. If the player is worried about the performance difference between a d8 and d6 for example, it is quite within your capabilities to grant them additional proficiencies, change weapon stats, or indeed rewrite the entire weapons table. Note that fully eliminating that issue isn't likely however.
 

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. . . for one handed weapons (or traditional sword and board character) d8 is the best you can get.

Which leads to the following observation- the inclusion of the d8 finesse rapier not only makes rapier a default choice . . .

Same thing with the longbow (or the heavy crossbow before gaining extra attacks). D&D has almost always had issues with some weapons being just flat out better than others.

That said, I don't particularly like how 5e handled the rapier. I don't particularly like how bland all the weapons are. If I designed the rapier, as a reaction you'd be able to counter-attack an enemy that missed you by 5 or more. Of course, if I designed the whip you'd be able to spend a reaction to try to trip or disarm an enemy on a successful attack roll.


Personally, I don't think it would be a problem; slightly nerfing melee Dex by one average damage isn't going to invalidate any builds.

While I agree an average of one point of damage is not breaking anything, that does cut both ways: if losing an extra one point of damage on average is nothing, then so is gaining the same.
 

If I designed the rapier, as a reaction you'd be able to counter-attack an enemy that missed you by 5 or more. Of course, if I designed the whip you'd be able to spend a reaction to try to trip or disarm an enemy on a successful attack roll.

I have to agree in sentiment: I wish every weapon had particular strengths and weaknesses so that there was no such thing as an optimal choice.

Armor, too. One of the things I like least about D&D is that there is no meaningful trade-off in armor choice.
 

I have to agree in sentiment: I wish every weapon had particular strengths and weaknesses so that there was no such thing as an optimal choice.

Armor, too. One of the things I like least about D&D is that there is no meaningful trade-off in armor choice.
Weapon rules have to be simple because the martial classes need to be simple because apparently martial class players are simple. Welcome to 40 years of nerd revenge fantasy design.
 

Weapon rules have to be simple because the martial classes need to be simple because apparently martial class players are simple. Welcome to 40 years of nerd revenge fantasy design.

This is my only gripe with 5th edition. Simplifying the rules is fine. But I wish they had found a way to have it be simple, AND also have armor and damage types matter more. What is the point of a weapon dealing piercing damage, if piercing damage has no effect on armor?

That said, I don't particularly like how 5e handled the rapier. I don't particularly like how bland all the weapons are. If I designed the rapier, as a reaction you'd be able to counter-attack an enemy that missed you by 5 or more. Of course, if I designed the whip you'd be able to spend a reaction to try to trip or disarm an enemy on a successful attack roll.

I agree, as far as that a weapon should have something unique that it can do. For example, maybe a rapier can pierce armor, but it comes at the cost of not being allowed to have a heavy/medium offhand weapon or shield? Or maybe it is easier to defend with a rapier?

I like the idea of there being a trade off with each weapon.

Same with spears. I think a throwing spear should be able to disable an opponent's shield if it is blocked by the opponent. And maybe a whip should be allowed to strike multiple opponents, to some what balance its pathetic damage.

(and in 3.5 there were even feats to use the whip to do cool things, such as using it as a grappling hook.)
 
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That said, I don't particularly like how 5e handled the rapier. I don't particularly like how bland all the weapons are. If I designed the rapier, as a reaction you'd be able to counter-attack an enemy that missed you by 5 or more. Of course, if I designed the whip you'd be able to spend a reaction to try to trip or disarm an enemy on a successful attack roll.
5e's ethos seems to be to empower the character rather than weapon minutiae. Riposting/counter hitting isn't something solely performed by rapiers, so it would make more sense to make that a feat in the same vein as Defensive Duellist so that someone trained to be able to do this could choose whatever weapon they want. If you make it a weapon property of the rapier, then someone who wants to be able to do this is forced to use a rapier.

I have to agree in sentiment: I wish every weapon had particular strengths and weaknesses so that there was no such thing as an optimal choice.
I believe that this would actually have the opposite effect: Currently players have access to a range of weapons with the occasional minor trade-off of damage. If every weapon had more specific strengths and weaknesses it would still give an 'optimal' choice: the weapon with the property that the player wants to use.

This is my only gripe with 5th edition. Simplifying the rules is fine. But I wish they had found a way to have it be simple, AND also have armor and damage types matter more. What is the point of a weapon dealing piercing damage, if piercing damage has no effect on armor?
5e really isn't granular enough to deal with that sort of detail though. For example: rapiers are pretty ineffective against most armour, yet war picks and daggers were a favourite to use against even the strongest armours. They all do piercing damage.

Damage type effectiveness in 5e is limited to things like skeletons, rather than fall down the rabbit hole of chasing after ever-increasing realism.

Same with spears. I think a throwing spear should be able to disable an opponent's shield if it is blocked by the opponent. And maybe a whip should be allowed to strike multiple opponents, to some what balance its pathetic damage.
Messing with shields was a function of one specific design of javelin, used in mass combat. It probably doesn't translate well to the very short, individual combat that adventurers tend to engage in.
Whips don't have pathetic damage for balance. They have pathetic damage because whips are very bad at killing people compared to other weapons. A character using a whip is probably using it for its unique properties (only finesse, reach weapon for example) or because they are doing other things (such as swinging from beams) rather than primarily killing people with it.

(and in 3.5 there were even feats to use the whip to do cool things, such as using it as a grappling hook.)
The issue there is that the existence of a feat that allows you to use a whip to catch on to things implies that you can't do that without the feat.
In 5e, if you want to use a whip to snag a beam to swing across a pit, you just tell your DM. They will make a ruling, probably giving you a bonus or advantage to your check rather than asking "do you have the feat".
 

Weapon rules have to be simple because the martial classes need to be simple because apparently martial class players are simple. Welcome to 40 years of nerd revenge fantasy design.

How do you even get through the day?
 

5e's ethos seems to be to empower the character rather than weapon minutiae. Riposting/counter hitting isn't something solely performed by rapiers, so it would make more sense to make that a feat in the same vein as Defensive Duellist so that someone trained to be able to do this could choose whatever weapon they want. If you make it a weapon property of the rapier, then someone who wants to be able to do this is forced to use a rapier.

I would only want a particular weapon to affect "riposte" if that were a default mechanic that anybody could use, and some weapons just made it better.

I believe that this would actually have the opposite effect: Currently players have access to a range of weapons with the occasional minor trade-off of damage. If every weapon had more specific strengths and weaknesses it would still give an 'optimal' choice: the weapon with the property that the player wants to use.

Yeah but that's "player choice optimization" not mathematical optimization, which is fine. The whole point (for me) is to let players choose the weapon they want for flavor, rather than feeling they have to pick the statistically optimal one. My rogues sometimes dual wield daggers: I'm willing to give up the 1 point of damage (per hit) because I like daggers. But I wish I didn't have to make that trade-off. I wish I could say, "Yeah, but daggers give me X. It's not possible to compute the numerical value of that, so I don't know whether it's better or worse than other choices, but it's close enough that I don't have to feel I'm making a bad choice."

For the record, I love the Dungeon World system, in which damage die is determined by class not weapon. Fighters can use table forks if they want.
 

I would only want a particular weapon to affect "riposte" if that were a default mechanic that anybody could use, and some weapons just made it better.



Yeah but that's "player choice optimization" not mathematical optimization, which is fine. The whole point (for me) is to let players choose the weapon they want for flavor, rather than feeling they have to pick the statistically optimal one. My rogues sometimes dual wield daggers: I'm willing to give up the 1 point of damage (per hit) because I like daggers. But I wish I didn't have to make that trade-off. I wish I could say, "Yeah, but daggers give me X. It's not possible to compute the numerical value of that, so I don't know whether it's better or worse than other choices, but it's close enough that I don't have to feel I'm making a bad choice."

For the record, I love the Dungeon World system, in which damage die is determined by class not weapon. Fighters can use table forks if they want.

For a rogue the 1 point trade of is minor because of sneak attack is the big damage dealer so it depends on builds if they are optimizing their damage it is what it is I just do not get to worked up over this stuff
 
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