I Have 8 20th Level Characters -- Now What?
- Thread starter Aluvial
- Start date
orangefruitbat
Adventurer
Since you're in Greyhawk
Have Rary kill them. He's sneaky that way. And if he get Robilar to help, he should have a decent chance.
Other possible contenders include the Grandmaster of Flowers of the Scarlett Brotherhood, the Lesser and Greater Boneheart, Iuz, or Iggylvwiv (sp?).
Now all you have to figure out is WHY your big bad is trying to kill the PCs. Shouldn't be hard as most PCs piss of somebody or other.
An alernative would be someone imprisons them in a Prison of Zagig somewhere down in the lower levels of Castle Greyhawk. Now, roll up new 1st level characters and set of to rescue yourselves!
Have Rary kill them. He's sneaky that way. And if he get Robilar to help, he should have a decent chance.
Other possible contenders include the Grandmaster of Flowers of the Scarlett Brotherhood, the Lesser and Greater Boneheart, Iuz, or Iggylvwiv (sp?).
Now all you have to figure out is WHY your big bad is trying to kill the PCs. Shouldn't be hard as most PCs piss of somebody or other.
An alernative would be someone imprisons them in a Prison of Zagig somewhere down in the lower levels of Castle Greyhawk. Now, roll up new 1st level characters and set of to rescue yourselves!
Anson Caralya
First Post
On a semi-related note, should you decide to continue into epic, The Quicksilver Hourglass (from a recent Dungeon issue) is a very cool adventure, and even the incredibly powerful party I ran through it found it very challenging
Ellie, very glad to hear that you enjoyed the Quicksilver Hourglass! Not to hijack this thread, but, as the author, I'm naturally curious to hear a bit more about how it played for you.
#123
The Grackle
First Post
Eight 20th level players!!!
Get an assistant DM.
Get an assistant DM.
Quickleaf
Legend
Way to go DM! Keep it up!
Sounds like a great game!
Here are some thought experiments that might help out...
Using a different ruleset
You might decide to change the paradigm of your game universe. Perhaps the PCs are all knighted or are imbued with divine might. It's time to leave D&D behind and venture into Green Ronin's waters with Mutants & Masterminds or True20. Of course, this requires that the players are willing to go along with the shift. I've found (and many have reported) that M&M is ideally suited for epic level play. I'd start the characters around Power Level 10.
Create political adventures
Put the PCs in the roles of heads of state, ministers, thief lords, barbarian chieftains, etc. I'd highly recommend checking out Atlas Games' Dynasties & Demagogues (can't recommend that enough really), which has great rules, but more importantly, some really great flavor content which might inspire you. Their strength of arms & cunning is already proven and they are regalled as heroes (or tyrants). It is time to prove their leadership. As has been suggested, check out Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre for great ideas.
An Epic Game Without Epic Rules
The Epic rules can be a bit cumbersome and also require that a DM think of lots of contingencies to plan an adventure, perhaps more work than you're willing or able to do. Here are some ideas to run an epic game without the player going over 20th level in any single class (though with some options, their character level might exceed 20):
* Heirs & Apprentices: Have the players take on the roles of the PCs' heirs (or apprentices if the PCs don't have children). This is really fun - you have all this rich material to weave into the new characters' backgrounds. For example, if their father was a great swordsman, perhaps the 1st-level mage son has some fencing skills, speaks as a fencer, and is quick to defend his father. He does everything he can to impress his father, but never quite measures up.
* Alternate Form: Have the high-level PCs be shifted into the bodies of commoners or even animals. Perhaps they are cursed, or perhaps they willingly undergoe the transformation as part of an elaborate surveillance project (but nobody told me we couldn't reverse it!). They now advance in racial levels according to their new forms. Admitedly while the "donkey racial class" may not sound glamorous, it could be a fun chance to create a Shrek-like character. Of course, gaining levels as a manticore or even a vampire or demon could be quite interesting, not to mention harrowing. The longer the character lives the more evil deeds they are likely to commit. Can the good they do overshadow the evil? Alternately the PCs may become angelic beings, torn between their mortal natures and divine selves (as in the movie Wings of Desire remade as City of Angels). Can the PCs cut it as celestial agents or will they fall?
* Amnesia: Strip them of everything they own and give them amnesia. Perhaps they are wrongly imprisoned (as in the Count of Monte Cristo) and forget their old abilities in jail. When they finally do escape they must relearn and remake themselves to get revenge on whoever sent them into prison/exile. Key events may trigger memories allowing them access to old skills. Alternately, they may be in a violent shipwreck and are found in a fishing village. The amnesiacs PC are raised by the local fishermen until one day the village is attacked and the PCs discover they are much more than they thought before.
* Members of a prestige class: Design a prestige class into which all the PCs will enter, like "Servants of the Elf Queen." This prestige class should account for all types of characters. Of course, once the PCs get all 10 levels of the PrC you are faced with your original question...
* Past Life or Ghost-Possession: The PCs delve into memories of their past lives, or find themselves to be possessed by ghosts. The campaign must focus on discovering the true nature of their past selves/ the ghosts living inside them. Each PC chooses a new character class and multiclasses in it. A major theme of this adventure would be uniting their past and present selves, or coming to terms with their ghosts.
* Light & Shadow Selves: PCs are cleaved in two through powerful magic. One side is their light nature (which the player takes control of). Their other side is their shadow nature, which is played by another player at certain points during the game. Thus each player in the group controls 2 characters - their own, and another player's shadow. Divide the character's levels in half between the light and shadow selves. The goal of the campaign is to find a way to unify the disparate parts. Along the way the PCs may flee from their shadow selves, have to answer for crimes committed by the shadow self, or hunt their shadow self to kill it.
* Curse: Personally, I don't like this option, but if done artfully it could work. The PCs are cursed by someone who has been harmed by their ambition. Should they ever show ambition or pride they risk transforming into an evil beast. One way to run this is to force any PC wishing to advance to take 5 levels in a "cursed" class before advancing. However, each level of the class makes them less and less human & more bestial and savage. Ultimately, the PCs must find the hag/demi-god/demon who cursed them and petition to have the curse lifted.
Cheers! -Aaron
Sounds like a great game!
Here are some thought experiments that might help out...
Using a different ruleset
You might decide to change the paradigm of your game universe. Perhaps the PCs are all knighted or are imbued with divine might. It's time to leave D&D behind and venture into Green Ronin's waters with Mutants & Masterminds or True20. Of course, this requires that the players are willing to go along with the shift. I've found (and many have reported) that M&M is ideally suited for epic level play. I'd start the characters around Power Level 10.
Create political adventures
Put the PCs in the roles of heads of state, ministers, thief lords, barbarian chieftains, etc. I'd highly recommend checking out Atlas Games' Dynasties & Demagogues (can't recommend that enough really), which has great rules, but more importantly, some really great flavor content which might inspire you. Their strength of arms & cunning is already proven and they are regalled as heroes (or tyrants). It is time to prove their leadership. As has been suggested, check out Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre for great ideas.
An Epic Game Without Epic Rules
The Epic rules can be a bit cumbersome and also require that a DM think of lots of contingencies to plan an adventure, perhaps more work than you're willing or able to do. Here are some ideas to run an epic game without the player going over 20th level in any single class (though with some options, their character level might exceed 20):
* Heirs & Apprentices: Have the players take on the roles of the PCs' heirs (or apprentices if the PCs don't have children). This is really fun - you have all this rich material to weave into the new characters' backgrounds. For example, if their father was a great swordsman, perhaps the 1st-level mage son has some fencing skills, speaks as a fencer, and is quick to defend his father. He does everything he can to impress his father, but never quite measures up.
* Alternate Form: Have the high-level PCs be shifted into the bodies of commoners or even animals. Perhaps they are cursed, or perhaps they willingly undergoe the transformation as part of an elaborate surveillance project (but nobody told me we couldn't reverse it!). They now advance in racial levels according to their new forms. Admitedly while the "donkey racial class" may not sound glamorous, it could be a fun chance to create a Shrek-like character. Of course, gaining levels as a manticore or even a vampire or demon could be quite interesting, not to mention harrowing. The longer the character lives the more evil deeds they are likely to commit. Can the good they do overshadow the evil? Alternately the PCs may become angelic beings, torn between their mortal natures and divine selves (as in the movie Wings of Desire remade as City of Angels). Can the PCs cut it as celestial agents or will they fall?
* Amnesia: Strip them of everything they own and give them amnesia. Perhaps they are wrongly imprisoned (as in the Count of Monte Cristo) and forget their old abilities in jail. When they finally do escape they must relearn and remake themselves to get revenge on whoever sent them into prison/exile. Key events may trigger memories allowing them access to old skills. Alternately, they may be in a violent shipwreck and are found in a fishing village. The amnesiacs PC are raised by the local fishermen until one day the village is attacked and the PCs discover they are much more than they thought before.
* Members of a prestige class: Design a prestige class into which all the PCs will enter, like "Servants of the Elf Queen." This prestige class should account for all types of characters. Of course, once the PCs get all 10 levels of the PrC you are faced with your original question...
* Past Life or Ghost-Possession: The PCs delve into memories of their past lives, or find themselves to be possessed by ghosts. The campaign must focus on discovering the true nature of their past selves/ the ghosts living inside them. Each PC chooses a new character class and multiclasses in it. A major theme of this adventure would be uniting their past and present selves, or coming to terms with their ghosts.
* Light & Shadow Selves: PCs are cleaved in two through powerful magic. One side is their light nature (which the player takes control of). Their other side is their shadow nature, which is played by another player at certain points during the game. Thus each player in the group controls 2 characters - their own, and another player's shadow. Divide the character's levels in half between the light and shadow selves. The goal of the campaign is to find a way to unify the disparate parts. Along the way the PCs may flee from their shadow selves, have to answer for crimes committed by the shadow self, or hunt their shadow self to kill it.
* Curse: Personally, I don't like this option, but if done artfully it could work. The PCs are cursed by someone who has been harmed by their ambition. Should they ever show ambition or pride they risk transforming into an evil beast. One way to run this is to force any PC wishing to advance to take 5 levels in a "cursed" class before advancing. However, each level of the class makes them less and less human & more bestial and savage. Ultimately, the PCs must find the hag/demi-god/demon who cursed them and petition to have the curse lifted.
Cheers! -Aaron
Psionicist
Explorer
Your characters have saved the world. Now it's a good time to let them change the world.
Aluvial
Explorer
These are really good ideas. I've quoted the ones that I would consider. I'm not really sure why, but the shadow and light option really appeals to me. I think the characters might get a kick out of it... especially playing opposites of themselves... I wonder if the more ruthless of them could get into playing an opposite.Quickleaf said:Sounds like a great game!
Here are some thought experiments that might help out...
An Epic Game Without Epic Rules
The Epic rules can be a bit cumbersome and also require that a DM think of lots of contingencies to plan an adventure, perhaps more work than you're willing or able to do. Here are some ideas to run an epic game without the player going over 20th level in any single class (though with some options, their character level might exceed 20):
* Heirs & Apprentices: Have the players take on the roles of the PCs' heirs (or apprentices if the PCs don't have children). This is really fun - you have all this rich material to weave into the new characters' backgrounds. For example, if their father was a great swordsman, perhaps the 1st-level mage son has some fencing skills, speaks as a fencer, and is quick to defend his father. He does everything he can to impress his father, but never quite measures up.
* Alternate Form:
* Amnesia: Strip them of everything they own and give them amnesia. Perhaps they are wrongly imprisoned (as in the Count of Monte Cristo) and forget their old abilities in jail. When they finally do escape they must relearn and remake themselves to get revenge on whoever sent them into prison/exile. Key events may trigger memories allowing them access to old skills. Alternately, they may be in a violent shipwreck and are found in a fishing village. The amnesiacs PC are raised by the local fishermen until one day the village is attacked and the PCs discover they are much more than they thought before.
* Members of a prestige class: Design a prestige class into which all the PCs will enter, like "Servants of the Elf Queen." This prestige class should account for all types of characters. Of course, once the PCs get all 10 levels of the PrC you are faced with your original question...
* Past Life or Ghost-Possession:
* Light & Shadow Selves: PCs are cleaved in two through powerful magic. One side is their light nature (which the player takes control of). Their other side is their shadow nature, which is played by another player at certain points during the game. Thus each player in the group controls 2 characters - their own, and another player's shadow. Divide the character's levels in half between the light and shadow selves. The goal of the campaign is to find a way to unify the disparate parts. Along the way the PCs may flee from their shadow selves, have to answer for crimes committed by the shadow self, or hunt their shadow self to kill it.
* Curse:
Cheers! -Aaron
Aluvial
Twinswords
First Post
Go plane walking. Why the abyss was created for just this occasion. have fun.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi there Aluvial!
Okay, quick question. Do you possess the Epic Level Handbook? Or even the epic SRD?
The Epic Level Handbook has 100 Epic Adventure ideas and an Epic Adventure called "Kerleths Tower"...although to be fair the adventure itself is not great.
Considering the strength of your party I can see why, especially if you are not yet using epic monsters.
I second the idea of the Quicksilver Hourglass adventure (its very good). Also there is an epic adventure (21st-level characters) in Dungeon #93 as well called "The Storm Lords Keep".
Greyhawk has more than enough epic villainy to accomodate your needs.
My first suggestion is to make the villains proactive, give them a game plan, act on their goals and then see how the PCs react to it. Don't have the world revolve around the PCs.
Main Greyhawk Epic Villains:
1. Iuz. Chaotic Evil. North Western threat. Demons (inc. Balors, possibly some minor demon lords). The Boneheart (Greater Boneheart C27 x2, W27 x3). Lesser Boneheart (W23, C22, Vampire W21, C23, W25, C22).
a. Massive humanoid army, bolstered by many demons.
b. Iuz is hoping to rebuild the Temple of Elemental Evil.
c. Trump card(s): Iggwilv and Zuggtmoy
2. Scarlet Brotherhood. Evil (works best as Neutral Evil). South Eastern threat. Yugoloths. Lots of Assassins and Monks.
Eldest Brother Mk26.
a. Corrupt existing armies from within and take them over. Bolstered by Daemons.
b. The Brotherhood want the cone of power (one of the Theorparts...which may be powering Jazirians floating castle?)
c. Trump card: Slerotin (W40), the Last Suel Mage of Power (whose body is found and resurrected).
3. Ivid. Lawful Evil. Eastern threat. Devils (Pit Fiends, perhaps even Bel from the Book of Vile Darkness?). Church of Hextor.
Ivid could be C7/W23.
a. Large Undead army, bolstered by Devils.
b. Ivids devils are still creating evil artifacts from the meteor site.
c. Trump card: Avatar of Hextor.
PCs could destroy the gates to the Hells.
4. Rary the Traitor. Neutral Evil. Centralised threat. Robilar.
Incidently, Robilar ascended 9 levels between Rary the Traitor and the Epic Level Handbook. Its possible Rary has also went up levels since then and would now be 32nd-level assuming the same rise. I'll assume a similar rise in levels for most of the main NPCs.
a. Rary is building an army of Constructs to bolster his humanoid forces.
b. If he gains the Scorpion Crown he can control all manscorpions of the Bright Desert.
c. Trump card: Mithril (Golem) Dragon Construct.
PCs could disrupt Rarys mining operation and cut down the supply of mithril, or destroy the Scorpion King.
5. Sevvord Redbeard. Chaotic Neutral. North Eastern threat. Barbarian Horde.
Redbeard could now be a 28th-level Barbarian. He has over 100 sons, many of whom would be high-level Barbarians.
a. Redbeard summons a contingent of Dragons (perhaps he has one of the Orbs of the Dragon King?) to spearhead his barbarian army.
b. Searching for the shards of Fraz-Urb'luu's staff.
c. Trump card: Fraz-urb'luu (See Dragon #333) is now the power behind the throne.
PCs could weaken Redbeard by stealing the Orb of the Dragon King and turning the dragons against the barbarians, or uncover the true power behind the throne, causing many of the barbarians to lose faith in their leader.
6. Jazirian; the Mage of the Vale. Neutral (Evil tendencies). Western threat. First Protector (Drow W18). The Necromancers (evil adventuring party). True Gargoyles.
As with Rary you could probably assume that Jazirian has ascended a few levels (W28 now maybe?), as have the Necromancers (W18, W19, W21, W14/F7, C16, F22)
a. Jazirian is gathering a vast army of Giants and Ogres.
b. Jazirians Castle now flies, you could tie this in with the Storm Lords Keep adventure.
c. Trump card: Jazirian has uncovered a spell that can summon and control the Tarrasque.
PCs could weaken Jazirian by causing dissension amongst the different giant tribes, or by destroying the artifact which keeps his castle aloft.
Other potential major villains: Accerak the Demilich, Pazuzu (Dragon #330); Wastri, the orc general from the Bone March, someone with the artifacts of Vecna etc.
Secondly, don't just concentrate on one villain, pick out five or six (see above), this gives the PCs a choice, giving them a greater sense that their destiny is in their own hands.
Thirdly, make sure the ultimate villain is (for now) beyond the PCs reach. The PCs may be able to take on a lone dragon of great power, but they won't be able to just waltz into Iuz throne room and take him out because he will have resources to call upon that would ultimately crush such a bold move. This way the PCs will have to be a bit more circumspect, indirectly weakening the villain sufficiently before they could even contemplate direct action. Even if they kill the main villain, its possible some subordinate may escape and try to rebuild things over time, learning from past mistakes.
The PCs may only be able to stymie villains with their actions, if they concentrate on one villain too long, others, left unopposed, may grow in power. So they might defeat Jazirian after a lengthy campaign of adventures, but the Brotherhood forces may wax in power (gaining their artifact). If they defeat Redbeard its possible some of the barbarians may ally with Iuz, swelling his armies.
Aluvial said:
Okay, quick question. Do you possess the Epic Level Handbook? Or even the epic SRD?
The Epic Level Handbook has 100 Epic Adventure ideas and an Epic Adventure called "Kerleths Tower"...although to be fair the adventure itself is not great.
Aluvial said:
Considering the strength of your party I can see why, especially if you are not yet using epic monsters.
Aluvial said:
I second the idea of the Quicksilver Hourglass adventure (its very good). Also there is an epic adventure (21st-level characters) in Dungeon #93 as well called "The Storm Lords Keep".
Aluvial said:
Greyhawk has more than enough epic villainy to accomodate your needs.
My first suggestion is to make the villains proactive, give them a game plan, act on their goals and then see how the PCs react to it. Don't have the world revolve around the PCs.
Main Greyhawk Epic Villains:
1. Iuz. Chaotic Evil. North Western threat. Demons (inc. Balors, possibly some minor demon lords). The Boneheart (Greater Boneheart C27 x2, W27 x3). Lesser Boneheart (W23, C22, Vampire W21, C23, W25, C22).
a. Massive humanoid army, bolstered by many demons.
b. Iuz is hoping to rebuild the Temple of Elemental Evil.
c. Trump card(s): Iggwilv and Zuggtmoy
2. Scarlet Brotherhood. Evil (works best as Neutral Evil). South Eastern threat. Yugoloths. Lots of Assassins and Monks.
Eldest Brother Mk26.
a. Corrupt existing armies from within and take them over. Bolstered by Daemons.
b. The Brotherhood want the cone of power (one of the Theorparts...which may be powering Jazirians floating castle?)
c. Trump card: Slerotin (W40), the Last Suel Mage of Power (whose body is found and resurrected).
3. Ivid. Lawful Evil. Eastern threat. Devils (Pit Fiends, perhaps even Bel from the Book of Vile Darkness?). Church of Hextor.
Ivid could be C7/W23.
a. Large Undead army, bolstered by Devils.
b. Ivids devils are still creating evil artifacts from the meteor site.
c. Trump card: Avatar of Hextor.
PCs could destroy the gates to the Hells.
4. Rary the Traitor. Neutral Evil. Centralised threat. Robilar.
Incidently, Robilar ascended 9 levels between Rary the Traitor and the Epic Level Handbook. Its possible Rary has also went up levels since then and would now be 32nd-level assuming the same rise. I'll assume a similar rise in levels for most of the main NPCs.
a. Rary is building an army of Constructs to bolster his humanoid forces.
b. If he gains the Scorpion Crown he can control all manscorpions of the Bright Desert.
c. Trump card: Mithril (Golem) Dragon Construct.
PCs could disrupt Rarys mining operation and cut down the supply of mithril, or destroy the Scorpion King.
5. Sevvord Redbeard. Chaotic Neutral. North Eastern threat. Barbarian Horde.
Redbeard could now be a 28th-level Barbarian. He has over 100 sons, many of whom would be high-level Barbarians.
a. Redbeard summons a contingent of Dragons (perhaps he has one of the Orbs of the Dragon King?) to spearhead his barbarian army.
b. Searching for the shards of Fraz-Urb'luu's staff.
c. Trump card: Fraz-urb'luu (See Dragon #333) is now the power behind the throne.
PCs could weaken Redbeard by stealing the Orb of the Dragon King and turning the dragons against the barbarians, or uncover the true power behind the throne, causing many of the barbarians to lose faith in their leader.
6. Jazirian; the Mage of the Vale. Neutral (Evil tendencies). Western threat. First Protector (Drow W18). The Necromancers (evil adventuring party). True Gargoyles.
As with Rary you could probably assume that Jazirian has ascended a few levels (W28 now maybe?), as have the Necromancers (W18, W19, W21, W14/F7, C16, F22)
a. Jazirian is gathering a vast army of Giants and Ogres.
b. Jazirians Castle now flies, you could tie this in with the Storm Lords Keep adventure.
c. Trump card: Jazirian has uncovered a spell that can summon and control the Tarrasque.
PCs could weaken Jazirian by causing dissension amongst the different giant tribes, or by destroying the artifact which keeps his castle aloft.
Other potential major villains: Accerak the Demilich, Pazuzu (Dragon #330); Wastri, the orc general from the Bone March, someone with the artifacts of Vecna etc.
Secondly, don't just concentrate on one villain, pick out five or six (see above), this gives the PCs a choice, giving them a greater sense that their destiny is in their own hands.
Thirdly, make sure the ultimate villain is (for now) beyond the PCs reach. The PCs may be able to take on a lone dragon of great power, but they won't be able to just waltz into Iuz throne room and take him out because he will have resources to call upon that would ultimately crush such a bold move. This way the PCs will have to be a bit more circumspect, indirectly weakening the villain sufficiently before they could even contemplate direct action. Even if they kill the main villain, its possible some subordinate may escape and try to rebuild things over time, learning from past mistakes.
The PCs may only be able to stymie villains with their actions, if they concentrate on one villain too long, others, left unopposed, may grow in power. So they might defeat Jazirian after a lengthy campaign of adventures, but the Brotherhood forces may wax in power (gaining their artifact). If they defeat Redbeard its possible some of the barbarians may ally with Iuz, swelling his armies.
Similar Threads
