D&D 5E I made a Revised Fighter to fix the martial/caster gap - Feedback?

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
For me, gladiator is the CHA fighter, Brawler raw Strength, and Tactician the INT fighter (with EK being magic).

In your opinion and the opinion of others here, which of these should be replaced with "Warrior"?
Gladiator or Tactician, tbh. Both are less important to me in the fighter than the straight up warrior, or for that matter the knight.
 

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Clint_L

Hero
I agree with your comments, except I am also fine with fighters doing more damage.
They already do the most damage. If you give them even more, you have to buff everyone, or balance goes out the window. And then you have to buff the monsters, too. I just don't think more damage is the answer (though that said, all martial classes are getting a significant damage boost through weapon masteries, more than most folks realize, once you break down the numbers).
 

dave2008

Legend
They already do the most damage. If you give them even more, you have to buff everyone, or balance goes out the window. And then you have to buff the monsters, too. I just don't think more damage is the answer (though that said, all martial classes are getting a significant damage boost through weapon masteries, more than most folks realize, once you break down the numbers).
I don't believe classes should be balanced around damage. Rogues and Paladins and even Wizards can do damage on par with a fighter. Personally, as a sacrifice for versatility, i would like a fighter to do something like 20%-30% more damage than every other class.

I am not saying this is good game design for the masses, just what I personally like.
 

jgsugden

Legend
I do feel maneuvers fill this niche. Using the cover rules is a neat idea.
The maneuvers dip the fighter's toes in the water. I'd push the fighter into the pool.

I would not restrict a fighter's battlefield abilities to limited uses per day. There is not magic that they are depleting. This isn't a spell. This is them being skilled at fighting, using the terrain, knowing how to anticipate enemy actions, and knowing their allies. Why should that be limited?

I'd allow them abilities they learn, and once they learn them they can use them an unlimited number of times. They'd learn a certain number of abilities at first level and gain access to better ones as they advance in level. You'd get 2 plus your intelligence modifer abilities at first level and more as you advanced - with certain abilities requiring a minimum fighter level to acquire them. Off the top of my head here are some ideas I'd toss out there (Note: They are not balanced against each other and som would require higher levels).

Shield Other: If a ranged attack targeting an ally passes through a space you occupy, your ally may add your shield bonus to their AC.
Switch: If you enter a space occupied by an ally, your ally may enter the space you vacated.
Shoulder the Burden: You may grapple an ally as a free action. When grappling an ally you may move your full speed and pull them with you.
Careful Carnage: You may use a bonus action to create a 15 foot by 15 area of difficult terrain by breaking an object you carry or an object within reach. The difficult terrain area must be in or adjacent to the space occupied by the object.
Dynamic Leaper: When you jump at least 10 feet your speed is increased by 10 feet until the end of the round.
Athletic Jumper: Treat your strength score as if it were 8 higher when calculating the height and length of your jumping.
Fast: Your speed is increased 5 feet.
Outmaneuver: When an ally is on the opposite side of an enemy from you, that enemy cannot use an action.
Find Weakness: You may mark a target you can see as a bonus action. Any ally that can hear you gets a +1 to attack rolls against that target while you can see the target. Your mark ends when the enemy dies, or after 1 minute.
Master of the Bull: When you execute a shove as an attack you may make an unarmed attack on the target as part of the attack.
Big Gulp: You may drink a potion yourself or give one to an ally as a bonus action.
Bloody Business: If deal damage to an enemy that enemy has disadvantage on stealth checks for 1 hour or until healed.
Rousing Cheer: You may use a bonus action to inspire your allies. They gain advantage on saving throws against abilities that would frighten them for the next minute.
Hodor: You may create barriers out of objects you carry or within reach as a bonus action. The barrier requires an athletics check with a DC of 8 Plus your proficiency bonus plus your intelligence modifier to move. The barrier makes a 5 foot by 5 foot area unpassable and can block doors from opening into them.
Taunt: As a bonus action you may taunt an enemy that understands you. That creature must make a wisdom saving throw with a DC equal to to 8 plus your proficiency bonus plus your intelligence modifier. If they fail, the creature is distracted and has disadvantage on perception checks for the next minute unless those checks involve you. They have advantage on perception checks against you.
Perfect throw: As a bonus action you may fling a tiny object up to 30 feet in order to attempt to activate a switch, knock over another object, position the thrown object safely (such as tossing a potion on a table across the room without breaking it), or do anything else the DM allows. When you make the attempt, make a sleight of hand check. The DM will set the DC, but it will generally be between 10 and 20 with 20 being the DC for a seemingly impossible task.
Study Scrolls: You have learned just enough about magic to use a scroll. You may use cantrip and first level scrolls as if you were a member of a spellcasting class of your choice.
Bandage Wounds: You may bandage the wounds of an ally if you have a healing kit and spend 1 minute. When you do so, the next time the ally regains hit points, the ally gains healing advantage for 1 minute. While they have healing advantage they roll twice for hps regained and use the better of the two rolls.
Direct the Path: When you have unusued movement at the end of your turn you may gift it to an ally. That ally must use it before the end of their next turn.
Coordinated Confusion: You may mark an enemy that you can see as a bonus action. Allies that can hear you gain +1 to AC and saves when that enemy attacks the ally or forces the ally to make a saving throw. Your mark ends when the enemy dies, or after 1 minute.
Threat Assessment: You may use a bonus action to learn the resistances and vulnerabilities of an adjacent enemy.
Assess and Capitalize: You may use an action to force an enemy to make an Intelligence saving throw with a DC equal to 8 plus your Intelligence Modifier plus your proficiency bonus. If they fail, that opponent must select how they will use their action on their next turn now, including any targets that need to be specified. When they take their turn they may use their action only to perform that action, to dodge, or to dash.
Battle Dancer: You gain one legendary action you may use each round. You may use a legendary action to move 5 feet without provoking an opportunity attack, or to move an adjacent ally 5 feet without provoking an opportunity attack, or to allow a prone creature to stand.
Steady Foot: You and allies that have been adjacent to you during the turn have advantage on acrobatics checks to keep their balance until the end of the turn.
Find the Hole: You and allies within 15 feet may elect to Find the Hole. A create that has elected to Find the Hole may move into a space occupied by an enemy, but must vacate the space(s) occupied by the enemy before they stop their movement or they are placed prone in the nearest empty space. The normal rules for opportunity attacks apply.
Wrestling Team: You and allies within 15 feet may use an attack to attempt to escape a grapple. Additionally, you and allies within 15 feet may use a bonus action to attempt to restrain a grappled enemy. The grapples foe may make an atheltics or acrobatics check to avoid being restrained with a DC equal to 3 plus your strength modifier plus your proficiency bonus.
Plot the Path: As a bonus action you may designate a number of spaces equal to your intelligence modifier. You and allies that can hear you cease to treat those spaces as difficult terrain.
 
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Clint_L

Hero
I don't believe classes should be balanced around damage. Rogues and Paladins and even Wizards can do damage on par with a fighter. Personally, as a sacrifice for versatility, i would like a fighter to do something like 20%-30% more damage than every other class.

I am not saying this is good game design for the masses, just what I personally like.
So…what do barbarians get? What do rogues get for having much lower survivability? Or sorcerers?

If balance doesn’t matter, then there isn’t much to discuss. Everyone who has a favourite class can just make threads about their power fantasies, I guess, but it doesn’t seem super relevant to D&D, the cooperative TTRPG.
 

dave2008

Legend
So…what do barbarians get? What do rogues get for having much lower survivability? Or sorcerers?

If balance doesn’t matter, then there isn’t much to discuss. Everyone who has a favourite class can just make threads about their power fantasies, I guess, but it doesn’t seem super relevant to D&D, the cooperative TTRPG.
I disagree, it is niche protection not power fantasies. Even if they did 30% more damage, they still couldn't match the "power" of a wizard. Each class could have its niche. Dealing damage is the fighter niche. Just dealing damage is not the only thing needed in a cooperative TTRPG.

PS - my favorite class is the rogue, but I mostly DM
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I don't believe classes should be balanced around damage. Rogues and Paladins and even Wizards can do damage on par with a fighter. Personally, as a sacrifice for versatility, i would like a fighter to do something like 20%-30% more damage than every other class.

I am not saying this is good game design for the masses, just what I personally like.

A while back @Flamestrike ran a 15th leve play by post mini adventure. There was a paladin/cleric, rogue, sorcerer, Bard and battle master fighter.

The fighter FAR outstripped everyone else for DPR, including ADDING together the AoE damage the sorcerer was dishing out. Granted, the fighter was optimized, but so was everyone else.

I'm not worried about fighter DPR, they've got that. It's primarily the near complete lack of other pillar support.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
A while back @Flamestrike ran a 15th leve play by post mini adventure. There was a paladin/cleric, rogue, sorcerer, Bard and battle master fighter.

The fighter FAR outstripped everyone else for DPR, including ADDING together the AoE damage the sorcerer was dishing out. Granted, the fighter was optimized, but so was everyone else.

I'm not worried about fighter DPR, they've got that. It's primarily the near complete lack of other pillar support.
I’m a bit skeptical that the play report isnt falling into fallacy of - ‘sorcerer didn’t blast much because he had better options, therefore the fighters damage is fine’.

When the actual belief is more - if the sorcerer chose to only focus on damage he would outdamage the fighter - and front load it a lot more.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
So a few surface notes:

I do not like the long rest recharge on Battle Dice. You only get five to start, only go up to ten, and yet the design encourages you yo use them on each attack. If short rests are still the core 1 hour, and we assume 3 round per combat, you're down to one a combat if that basically at one maneuver.

I'd much rather trade some other abilities to regen at least 3 per short rest.

Also, for a melee focused class, HP, HD and not dying are too important to spend HD on a single extra option in combat. It isn't worth ever spending HD to recharge battle dice.

For the maneuvers, Parry and Precision Attack are build-specific and should be moved to the list of choices. This also helps customizability by letting you choose three.

Improved critical and improved Battlemaster can be moved to subclasses to provide a boost to battle dice regeneration.

Relentless is nice, but suffers that ISO standard 5e mistake of coming man, many levels too late. It'd be a good replacement for Improved Critical and Improved Battlemaster at level 5.

Paragon of Battle feels like it can follow onto wherever improved critical goes in a subclass. Maybe a bump the Relentless die to d10 in its place.

Finishing blow is intriguing, but with its high unfairness typed damage, it doesn't need SoD tacked on. Maybe have it trigger on a crit and cost two dice instead of going offline for a day. Long rest abilities should stop in general, IMO.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I’m a bit skeptical that the play report isnt falling into fallacy of - ‘sorcerer didn’t blast much because he had better options, therefore the fighters damage is fine’.

When the actual belief is more - if the sorcerer chose to only focus on damage he would outdamage the fighter - and front load it a lot more.
The sorcerer was dropping fireballs and other damaging spells left and right. The fighter's damage exceeded EVERYONE else's by a wide margin., over the course of multiple fights. Is it absolutely dispositive? No, but it certainly showed a lot.

There were different issues exposed by the play report. For example - a staff of the magi (or power) WAY OP for a sorcerer or wizard. It allows them to blast and cast almost indiscriminately and still keep their personal spell reserves for other things
 

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