I Might Have to Run a Bad RPG System Next Week!

[Morrus]

The current edition, WFRP 4E. Here are a few reasons for our confusion and things that just seem not intuitive or that slow down gameplay as we try to figure out things.
1) 4 pools of expendable points that are all very similar, named similarly (fortune, fate, resilience, and [some other r-term I've forgotten])
2) keeping track of advantage points for characters and every enemy
3) hit locations, figured out by flipping the die roll (just a confusing extra step)
4) critical hit and miss charts
5) lingering wound charts
6) counting success levels by subtracting die rolls and comparing to the die roll of another person
7) adding success levels based on ranks of talents
8) several "special die roll"combinations that give different results (criticals, failures, spell mishaps all have different combinations)
9) advancing characters is confusing, spending XP at different rates

These are just the first few that come to mind. I'm concerned that the rules are so complicated that I won't be able to focus on the plot, mystery, characterization, roleplay, or anything else but run the game as a wargaming simulation.

I guess just play someeting else then? No game is supposed to cause you that much consternation. I find it just fine, and find some other games lack depth. Each to their own - that’s why we have hundreds of games.

 

[aramis erak]

4E has "...overtaken the plumbing, sir."
The system for WFRP 1e is pretty simple, and ensures the right tone.

Part of the feel of the setting is that mutilation and mutation are ever present threats. And mutilation can be used to hide certain mutations, too... Crab Claws? lop them off at the elbow, blame it on an ork...

 

[macd21]

The current edition, WFRP 4E. Here are a few reasons for our confusion and things that just seem not intuitive or that slow down gameplay as we try to figure out things.
1) 4 pools of expendable points that are all very similar, named similarly (fortune, fate, resilience, and [some other r-term I've forgotten])
2) keeping track of advantage points for characters and every enemy
3) hit locations, figured out by flipping the die roll (just a confusing extra step)
4) critical hit and miss charts
5) lingering wound charts
6) counting success levels by subtracting die rolls and comparing to the die roll of another person
7) adding success levels based on ranks of talents
8) several "special die roll"combinations that give different results (criticals, failures, spell mishaps all have different combinations)
9) advancing characters is confusing, spending XP at different rates

These are just the first few that come to mind. I'm concerned that the rules are so complicated that I won't be able to focus on the plot, mystery, characterization, roleplay, or anything else but run the game as a wargaming simulation.

1) the best way to look at these is not as 4 pools, but 2. Fate/fortune points are really the same thing. You can choose to spend an f-point during a session for various bonuses, and get them back later. But you can also burn an f-point permanently for other ‘get out of jail free’ situations. The same goes for r-points, just with different bonuses.
2) yep, this can be a chore for some people. We use chits to keep track of it.
3-5) not a problem for our group. Guess we’ve just been playing WFRP long enough we don’t even notice anymore.
6) we found switching to quick-SL really helped with this.
7) rarely comes up, and to be honest, rarely makes a difference when it does, so it’s usually not a problem if people forget. It mostly comes down to people knowing their characters. You built your character to be really good at X, so you got the talents with that in mind. I think it’s a bigger problem when using the pregens, ‘cause you didn’t make the character yourself. It’s like being handed a 10th level fighter and then forgetting all the little bonuses he gets from his myriad of fears.
8) ? Not sure about this, as it’s basically just doubles, and for a few things doubles + tens (10, 20, 30 etc).
9) also nothing to say about this, as it seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Retreater]

Maybe it's one of the cases of we'll get used to it over the course of regular play? It's not immediately intuitive like rules lite systems (such as Powered by the Apocalypse or FATE games), and it's very different than the crunchy systems we have decades of experience with (such as d20).
When I was reading the book, I couldn't understand it at all. Then I played a game at Origins - and I understood a lot of it. But then when I tried to run my own game, I was confused again.

 

[macd21]

I generally assume the first session or two of any new game is going to be a bit rough. But sometimes a game just isn’t to a group’s taste. I don’t find WFRP 4 as complicated as (say) DnD 3, but then again I was very familiar with 1st and 2nd ed.

If you do play it again, just assume you’re going to get some stuff wrong and wing it. House rule as necessary. Personally I wouldn’t use the pregens, but that’s just me.

 

[Retreater]

I generally assume the first session or two of any new game is going to be a bit rough. But sometimes a game just isn’t to a group’s taste. I don’t find WFRP 4 as complicated as (say) DnD 3, but then again I was very familiar with 1st and 2nd ed.

If you do play it again, just assume you’re going to get some stuff wrong and wing it. House rule as necessary. Personally I wouldn’t use the pregens, but that’s just me.

For the one-shot, we used pregens to get the basic feel of the game. We will be creating new characters at a session 0 next week. I think that character building is an important part of understanding a system.

 

[5atbu]

I think it's best to take this down to a few core rules and play them. Then when you are comfortable, add another in and try that.

It really isn't too hard.

The only other RPG that has a comparable feel is Shadow of the Demon Lord, which is easier but again it's a new system and you're invested in WHFRP 4e now

 

[lordabdul]

I agree with the general sentiment that D&D (or most flavours of D20/OSR games for that matter) would not be very good at playing a grim and gritty campaign like Enemy Within (or any adventure set in a likewise gritty world). Maybe you're very good at tinkering with D&D rules to adapt power progression, HPs, combat, etc. to an extreme degree, though... or maybe you don't care much about the "grim" aspect of the WFRP world and you want to transpose it all in a Forgotten Realms-type world... but otherwise, yeah, don't.

If you can't get your head around the WFRP rules (it would be sad, they have some pretty cool stuff), do:

1. Say so to the players. As I understand, they were the ones who requested this campaign? Maybe some of them are passionate enough that they'll either offer to help you out, or one of them will even step up and GM the campaign!
2. Run a "session 0" to get a grip on the rules. Tell your players that you're not sure you like those rules, you don't understand them, you're not sure it will run smoothly with this group. So grab a one-shot adventure on PDF, or even make up a totally basic premise as an excuse to play through some scenes (tavern... villager in need... kidnapped kid... goblin lair... whatever). If it still doesn't go well, at least you didn't invest all the work to read and prepare for the beginning of a giant campaign, and you can move on to something else the following week.

I can't stress enough how important session 0 games are. These days I always run them, especially if any player (including myself) is new to a game system. Even when the players aren't new, I still run one to let them try out their characters and see if they work as well in practice as what they thought when they made them.

 

[S'mon]

Agree about Session 0 playtest. I'd say you learn most from making and running your own mini adventure; have a combat and some task resolution. Make clear you're prepared to do an 'it was all a dream' do-over if necessary.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

As others have said, Warhammer 2e might be easier to run. I've run Warhammer 1e and 2e, and yeah, my brain started tuning out as I read through 4e and its numerous subsystems and rules. Another option I'd say would match the feel and setting of Warhammer closely while being easier to play would be the new Witcher RPG, too.

If you're not feeling comfortable with Warhammer 4e, it's probably better to just put the cards on the table and talk with your group about it. I've been in situations where I've been stuck running a game that I didn't care for before, and I really wish I hadn't.