D&D General I need a D&D counseling session! Help! (Re: Update ("Argument-Stopping Protocols" -- please advise!))

[Droop-in-soup]

I'm feeling grateful to the people who have taken the time to engage and give me excellent food for thought.

This forus is full of amazing people posting, from what I have experienced.

 

[the Jester]

I have been wanting to ask you this, and ask people on the forum in general, and so I will post it here:
Reading how my friend depicted me in his few 'laying it all out' took a lot of self control for me to get through. I felt that the person he depicted (me, as he experienced it) would be perceived in so many ways as a terrible player and out of control, nonsensical person. I find myself wondering to what degree people like yourself reading that also got that impression?

I get the impression that you're a nightmare to DM for, but that says basically nothing about you as a person.

I agree with the emerging consensus- you need to try DMing, or if you want to remain a player, you need to stop with all the pushing. You don't get to set the table rules, you don't get to rewrite cantrips or feats, you don't get to decide what treasure you find. That's not your role. Know your role- it's to play your character and engage with the DM's world and challenges.

It sounds like you have a great deal of potential as a DM. You sound interested in all the right things, but that interest is dragging down your 'score' as a player. There's a reason that the two roles are separate.

 

[Droop-in-soup]

I've come to agree with you. That is my take away.

I still have the problem that I want to experience those things as a player. But I now know how I need to behave differently in this situation. It's clear to me.

 

[Droop-in-soup]

I get the impression that you're a nightmare to DM for, but that says basically nothing about you as a person.

I agree with the emerging consensus- you need to try DMing, or if you want to remain a player, you need to stop with all the pushing. You don't get to set the table rules, you don't get to rewrite cantrips or feats, you don't get to decide what treasure you find. That's not your role. Know your role- it's to play your character and engage with the DM's world and challenges.

It sounds like you have a great deal of potential as a DM. You sound interested in all the right things, but that interest is dragging down your 'score' as a player. There's a reason that the two roles are separate.

I realize I have a question to add to your post. And I would love to hear some people at least verify the validity of the point I would like to add.

I have to agree with your assessment of my situation - with this specific DM.
I would add this too, that also no DM wants me to act out about dice rolls, etc. Any bad behavior I have to own and deal with. That is universal.

But I am not yet convinced in overly fixing the separate rolls between player and DM . If I have potential as a DM, then it is clear that a DM (me) would be very happy to have a player engage on the level of correcting facets of things that might offer rich experiences and learning. Feats, spells, whatever. Isn't this the basis of friends who like to home brew? Sure, I'd have limits, but I expect I can't be the only one who imagines a friendly partnership between players and DM in this way.

I would expect the hear things like this on this forum like: You are a home brew type, there are lots of DMs who would be glad to explore things with you. But not your current DM, so you have to stop asking him. But if you find the right DM, you might find yourself a welcome player. (aside from bad behavior)

I don't see myself as pure DMs nightmare. I do see myself as a nightmare for my friend DM. Are people going to insist that my asks are in the majority a problem, or ok in themselves and just need the right DM. My asks are one thing. Bad behavior is another thing. I am separating the two things and looking for whether another culture exists here than those who relate to my friend as DM.

Thoughts, feedback from anyone?

 

[jgsugden]

You've effectively ignored the majority of the effective feedback: Go your separate ways and do not share.

You run a game. Your 'friend' runs their game. You set your rules. Your friend sets their rules. Your group can choose which games they want to enjoy.

Any other answer ... ANY other answer ... in the face of these challenges is either trolling or just seeking validation. As in any relationship between people - sometimes it is better to just walk away than try to make it work.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I realize I have a question to add to your post. And I would love to hear some people at least verify the validity of the point I would like to add.

I have to agree with your assessment of my situation - with this specific DM.
I would add this too, that also no DM wants me to act out about dice rolls, etc. Any bad behavior I have to own and deal with. That is universal.

But I am not yet convinced in overly fixing the separate rolls between player and DM . If I have potential as a DM, then it is clear that a DM (me) would be very happy to have a player engage on the level of correcting facets of things that might offer rich experiences and learning. Feats, spells, whatever. Isn't this the basis of friends who like to home brew? Sure, I'd have limits, but I expect I can't be the only one who imagines a friendly partnership between players and DM in this way.

I would expect the hear things like this on this forum like: You are a home brew type, there are lots of DMs who would be glad to explore things with you. But not your current DM, so you have to stop asking him. But if you find the right DM, you might find yourself a welcome player. (aside from bad behavior)

I don't see myself as pure DMs nightmare. I do see myself as a nightmare for my friend DM. Are people going to insist that my asks are in the majority a problem, or ok in themselves and just need the right DM. My asks are one thing. Bad behavior is another thing. I am separating the two things and looking for whether another culture exists here than those who relate to my friend as DM.

Thoughts, feedback from anyone?

Based on my experience, it is perfectly fine to share ideas and offer suggestions. I welcome it from my players.

It is extremely bad form to be pushy about it, or to become offended if they don't use what you offer. No means no, ESPECIALLY coming the DM.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I would expect the hear things like this on this forum like: You are a home brew type, there are lots of DMs who would be glad to explore things with you. But not your current DM, so you have to stop asking him. But if you find the right DM, you might find yourself a welcome player. (aside from bad behavior)

Absolutely no GM I have ever played with has wanted a player to consistently push against well established boundaries. A person doing this isn't a good player. A person doing this is a BAD player. A person doing this is annoying. A person doing this is disruptive to a good game experience. This player is NOT an asset, but instead a liability.

In your specific game your friend, the GM, explicitly said "I am going to run a vanilla 5e game for 6 months, then we can look at adding in things." This is a very well established boundary. If you cannot stop yourself from constantly pushing up against the boundary you are being disruptive, a bad player, and to be honest a bad friend to the GM.

 

[Droop-in-soup]

You've effectively ignored the majority of the effective feedback: Go your separate ways and do not share.

You run a game. Your 'friend' runs their game. You set your rules. Your friend sets their rules. Your group can choose which games they want to enjoy.

Any other answer ... ANY other answer ... in the face of these challenges is either trolling or just seeking validation. As in any relationship between people - sometimes it is better to just walk away than try to make it work.

If you are saying we need to keep our roles separate, that advice has already found assent in me. If you mean not playing together anymore as a conclusion is the only option, that seems to go too far. That is something we would have to decide.

To say it in a way I expect you would agree with: If things stay as they are, we should not continue to play together. I would agree with that. I find that change is the variable that has not been exhausted. We have not had the opportunity to see what would happen after we got clear on what our problems are. I find that a weakness in your argument. Your advice would stop the problem, but it wouldn't solve what underlies it. Learning might solve it.

I haven't had a conversation or exchange with my friend who started the post, so the time for conclusions has not come. I think you may be responding to the fact that I am in a process and not inclined to close doors until the process includes an exchange with my friend.

I want to add this: I can't agree with your assessment that any other answer is just trolling and validation. I would recognize a wish to learn in a more comprehensive way as another. And as I said above, the possibility of change you seem to ignore.

Even if I 100% expected us to stop playing together, I would still engage for a time with the forum as certain questions get unpacked and related topics get me clear for a next step. If people are right and I started this process as a nightmare to DM for, I can't call it a success if I just walk away. And, I'm not sure seeking validation is purely inappropriate. Validation helps one see a landscape of who does what. On the other side, for learning, it isn't just the validation that is interesting, but the reason why validation isn't coming.

When learning and progress have exhausted themselves in a situation is a time to move on, so long as no real harm is done to either party in the process. On my side, I make no claims to harm having been done to me.

 

[Droop-in-soup]

Absolutely no GM I have ever played with has wanted a player to consistently push against well established boundaries. A person doing this isn't a good player. A person doing this is a BAD player. A person doing this is annoying. A person doing this is disruptive to a good game experience. This player is NOT an asset, but instead a liability.

In your specific game your friend, the GM, explicitly said "I am going to run a vanilla 5e game for 6 months, then we can look at adding in things." This is a very well established boundary. If you cannot stop yourself from constantly pushing up against the boundary you are being disruptive, a bad player, and to be honest a bad friend to the GM.

I can only agree with what you're saying from that perspective. My question was specifically not from that perspective. Unfortunately your post treats me as if I said the opposite of what I said.

You're describing my unfortunate behavior of the past, and I acknowledge that problem. I asked the question of GMs that can actually enjoy joining players who want to be creative at the table.

I thought I was pretty clear about that. I wasn't asking who would enjoy me being pushy. I said I could imagine people enjoying participating with the kinds of asks I have had.

Are we on the same page now? I'm confused by your response.

 

[Charlaquin]

I realize I have a question to add to your post. And I would love to hear some people at least verify the validity of the point I would like to add.

I have to agree with your assessment of my situation - with this specific DM.
I would add this too, that also no DM wants me to act out about dice rolls, etc. Any bad behavior I have to own and deal with. That is universal.

But I am not yet convinced in overly fixing the separate rolls between player and DM . If I have potential as a DM, then it is clear that a DM (me) would be very happy to have a player engage on the level of correcting facets of things that might offer rich experiences and learning. Feats, spells, whatever. Isn't this the basis of friends who like to home brew? Sure, I'd have limits, but I expect I can't be the only one who imagines a friendly partnership between players and DM in this way.

I would expect the hear things like this on this forum like: You are a home brew type, there are lots of DMs who would be glad to explore things with you. But not your current DM, so you have to stop asking him. But if you find the right DM, you might find yourself a welcome player. (aside from bad behavior)

I don't see myself as pure DMs nightmare. I do see myself as a nightmare for my friend DM. Are people going to insist that my asks are in the majority a problem, or ok in themselves and just need the right DM. My asks are one thing. Bad behavior is another thing. I am separating the two things and looking for whether another culture exists here than those who relate to my friend as DM.

Thoughts, feedback from anyone?

It’s a big world out there full of lots of people, obviously there must be some DMs who would welcome this kind of collaborative home brewing with their players, but in my experience it is extremely atypical. I think most DMs would be willing to hear out a player with a proposal for a house rule, but I don’t think most would be likely to adopt such a suggestion unsolicited, unless it just happened to be a perfect fit for their tastes.

It’d be like an actor coming to the director with ideas about how they think the movie should go (Mark Hamill is actually a real life example of an actor with this habit). Many directors will listen to the suggestion out of politeness, but few will end up adopting the suggestion, because at the end of the day it’s the director’s vision that guides the making of the film, not the actors’.

Now, it is generally good DM practice to discuss potential house rules with their players. If the DM recognizes that there’s something they would like to change, they might solicit their players for suggestions, and/or run their own ideas for changes by the players for feedback. But that’s a key difference, it’s the DM asking the players for input, rather than the players offering input that wasn’t asked for and may not be wanted.

My advice, if you wish to remain a player, is to discuss with any DM who’s group you might join this interest you have in participating in the development of homebrew, before your first session with them. See how they feel about receiving that kind of player input. I expect you will find that most DMs are not too keen on the idea, but might be willing to entertain suggestions, with the corollary that if they say no, that’s the end of the discussion. But you might find some who like the idea. Either way, it’s important to set those expectations first, before they have the chance to become a problem like they have here.

As for the advice to no longer play with this friend of yours: I’m going to echo it as well: your tastes are too dissimilar, continuing to try to play together is not going to be fun for either of you and will only continue to result in strife. Maybe after some time enjoying gaming apart from each other, you might try again, but at least for now, going your separate ways in terms of gaming is the only path forward that doesn’t just result in more hurt feelings and strain on the friendship. I know it sucks, but good friends don’t always make good RPG group mates.