I need an Engineering job

[StreamOfTheSky]

I apologize to the mods if this topic is inappropriate, but I've reached the point in my job search where no avenue or form of begging should be overlooked. I figure a lot of people at ENWorld are intelligent, tech-savvy types, and have seen several say that they are engineers, so seems as good a place as any to ask for help.

I have a Bachelors of Science in Electrical Engineering from the University of Rhode Island, an ABET accredited institution. I have tried for the past year since graduating to find an entry level full time job or even internship in the profession. I have epic failed. I also have a fiancee that I'd like to be able to afford a place to live with and marry, but we both currently live with our parents and are poor, so that's just not feasible right now. While wanting to provide for her is the major driving force in my growing desperation, that's a personal issue, so I won't mention it again. The other major worry is that in my field, it looks VERY bad to have no experience, and to go for as long as I have with no related work. If you don't hold an engineering job for a few years, your skills are generally considered obsolete, due to changing technology.

So, I've begun looking for anythingthat would give me work experience with a company -- temp agencies, offering to work unpaid, whatever. I just am not very good at first impressions in general, and have come to realize the standard drop a resume, fill out a background application, possibly survive a phone interview, get an on-site interview, and wait for reply will just simply not work for me. If the company location is within 50 miles of my house, I'd even work for free in order to actually prove myself and earn a normal job.

So, please. If you can get me in contact with someone at your company or know someone who knows someone, help a gamer out? One major problem I have is networking -- I have few friends I stay in contact with, and none of them are in my field. So, better late than never.

PM me with an email address if you'd like my resume, and thank you for any help.

 

[Pbartender]

So, I've begun looking for anythingthat would give me work experience with a company -- temp agencies, offering to work unpaid, whatever. I just am not very good at first impressions in general, and have come to realize the standard drop a resume, fill out a background application, possibly survive a phone interview, get an on-site interview, and wait for reply will just simply not work for me.

Give us some examples of A) what kind of jobs you've already looked into, B) where you've been looking for them, and C) why you are so certain that you can't the standard job application procedure work for you. Do that, and we'll give you some useful advice.

I could refer you to the lab I work at, but if you can't (or don't think you can) convince my boss that you're right for the job, there's no point.

 

[Umbran]

C) why you are so certain that you can't the standard job application procedure work for you. Do that, and we'll give you some useful advice.

Especially this last. Interviewing is a learnable thing.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

A) I mainly would like to go into optics or signal processing as my field, and I have looked mostly at Dept. of Defense (pretty much U.S. Navy for my region), defense contractors (BAE Systems, Raytheon, etc...), Biomedical suppliers (Philips, Astro-Med, etc...), and assorted others. I also look for project manager positions, but I'm not particularly interested in management.

B) A lot on the web, job fairs, newspaper ads (very rarely helpful), leads from one of my old professors, and a few I knew of nearby I just called on the phone. I've mostly applied for jobs in the New England area, though a few were nationwide. Farthest I've traveled for interviews so far has been Kittery, Maine (Portsmouth Naval Shipyard) and Pittsburgh, PA (U.S. Steel). Some group called Abeeva wanted me on a plane to California for an interview the next week, but it seemed fishy to me (such as the initial training program costing money, to be refunded upon completion) so I declined.

C) Mainly the fact that only about 25% of my phone interviews have lead to full interviews and that I have not been hired from an interview...ever. Like...I've only had two jobs my whole life. The first was at college during a busy period when they were desperate for temporary help, and I did so well they kept me full time. The other was a summer job I got on a friend's recommendation. I have poor communication skills, trouble speaking up, awkward body language, and don't feel at all comfortable "selling myself." I also get severe headaches when under stress, and I doubt the involuntary clutching of my head goes over well.

I'll keep putting in resumes and taking interviews, but I realy don't think it will help. I'd rather just work unpaid and earn a job that way than try to fix my interview skills, which would require way too much altering of habit and natural inclination. The lack of work experience seems to hang like an ever-growing anchor around my neck with each passing week, with literally EVERY interviewer in the last 6 months asking why I have none, making it seem all the more imperative for me to put getting a job above all else. And I really do need to find a way to make contacts. I'm in the IEEE, but haven't gone to any of the local events because I'm afraid I won't understand any of the specifics of the topic and just come off looking foolish, but I guess I should try at least.

 

[Pbartender]

A) I mainly would like to go into optics or signal processing as my field, and I have looked mostly at Dept. of Defense (pretty much U.S. Navy for my region), defense contractors (BAE Systems, Raytheon, etc...), Biomedical suppliers (Philips, Astro-Med, etc...), and assorted others. I also look for project manager positions, but I'm not particularly interested in management.

"Beggars can't be choosers." You're unnecessarily narrowing your search. You should not looking for a job in optics or signal processing, you should be looking for a job in Electrical Engineering... Any job in EE. Look anywhere and everywhere. Manufacturing facilities are always looking for guys with your talents, even it means you are just working as a glorified technician, it's work that can be later displayed as experience.

B) A lot on the web, job fairs, newspaper ads (very rarely helpful), leads from one of my old professors, and a few I knew of nearby I just called on the phone. I've mostly applied for jobs in the New England area, though a few were nationwide. Farthest I've traveled for interviews so far has been Kittery, Maine (Portsmouth Naval Shipyard) and Pittsburgh, PA (U.S. Steel). Some group called Abeeva wanted me on a plane to California for an interview the next week, but it seemed fishy to me (such as the initial training program costing money, to be refunded upon completion) so I declined.

Don't be afraid to move away from home. Also, never turn down a interview. Just as interviews are all about the employers giving you the run-down, they are the best for YOU to get a good idea of what the company is like and whether or not you'd enjoy working there.

C) Mainly the fact that only about 25% of my phone interviews have lead to full interviews and that I have not been hired from an interview...ever.

High expectations. 25% is not a bad return on phone interviews. Remembering back to my job search after college, I think of my initial round of two dozen applications, less than half even got a response, positive or negative. Three of them were requests for phone interviews, two of which turned into face to face interviews. I got lucky and was hired from one of those two interviews.

The point is, don't get down about your rate of success/failure. There's a lot of people out there looking for the same job, and that means competition. Though it doesn't seem so when you get rejected, just getting down to the finalist stages of phone interviews and interviews is an accomplishment.

I have poor communication skills, trouble speaking up, awkward body language, and don't feel at all comfortable "selling myself." I also get severe headaches when under stress, and I doubt the involuntary clutching of my head goes over well. I'll keep putting in resumes and taking interviews, but I realy don't think it will help.

Stop making excuses. You're an engineer. Ostensibly, you have trained to solve problems, not avoid them. So solve this problem.

As Umbran said, you can learn to overcome all of these problems, and if you do it will make a huge difference in your hiring prospects.

I'd rather just work unpaid and earn a job that way than try to fix my interview skills...

It. Will. Never. Work.

Here's why: What will you answer, when your prospective employer asks you, "Work unpaid? Why don't you think you deserve to get paid for your skills?" Especially in technical fields, any potential employer would rather spend money on someone who knows what they're doing, than get someone who doesn't for free. If you offer to work unpaid, any employer worth his salt will start to wonder what's wrong with you.

If you really want to learn how to land a job, let us know... I've got more advice, but my lunch break's over.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

"Beggars can't be choosers." You're unnecessarily narrowing your search. You should not looking for a job in optics or signal processing, you should be looking for a job in Electrical Engineering... Any job in EE. Look anywhere and everywhere. Manufacturing facilities are always looking for guys with your talents, even it means you are just working as a glorified technician, it's work that can be later displayed as experience.

I look in the paper for technician jobs and told the temp agencies I sent my resume to contact me for any technical work, engineering or not. One thing I was worried about the first few months was taking a job I knew I would not want to stay in (like working with power supplies at APC) because then I'd just be looking to hop to a better one. I'm fully aware a company loses money on an engineer initially, since there's almost always training involved. I thought it'd look bad if I left a company too quickly. Only the last few months have I abandoned that. My mom met an old acquaintance from a semiconductor company the other night. Before, I would shrug it off because I'm not interested in that, now...I'm looking forward to calling him. Of course, he said that right now they're laying people off for the first time in two decades and not hiring, so I was going to offer to work unpaid. Below, you make that seem like a bad idea.

Don't be afraid to move away from home. Also, never turn down a interview. Just as interviews are all about the employers giving you the run-down, they are the best for YOU to get a good idea of what the company is like and whether or not you'd enjoy working there.

I've never turned down an interview. I have neglected emails for jobs I clearly wasn't qualified for or absolutely did not want to do (usually emailing a thanks for the interest and sending my resume anyway). I don't think when I interview for a job I don't really want that I let it be obvious, though it is hard to feign enthusiasm for some things. The majority of phone and in person interviews I've had have been for jobs I wanted, so it's not often a problem. I'm extremely apprehensive to work outside the New England area initially, though I have applied for work all over the country.

High expectations. 25% is not a bad return on phone interviews. Remembering back to my job search after college, I think of my initial round of two dozen applications, less than half even got a response, positive or negative. Three of them were requests for phone interviews, two of which turned into face to face interviews. I got lucky and was hired from one of those two interviews.

I'd say 90% or more of my applications never get a reply (or an automated one only). If 25% is not bad for phone interviews, then I guess my voice isn't as bad on the phone as I thought.

The point is, don't get down about your rate of success/failure. There's a lot of people out there looking for the same job, and that means competition. Though it doesn't seem so when you get rejected, just getting down to the finalist stages of phone interviews and interviews is an accomplishment.

It's not the rate that bothers me so much as how long it has been. Some companies I have now interviewed for twice. One of those, I may apply to a third time as they are apparently hiring again. However, if they didn't hire me the previous time, it seems really pointless to show up again. I don't want to go back to school, but if I'm supposed to try again at the same places, I feel I need to do something to be "better" than the last time. Other than IEEE classes and presentations (assuming I could even understand them), what else would you recommend I do?

Stop making excuses. You're an engineer. Ostensibly, you have trained to solve problems, not avoid them. So solve this problem.

As Umbran said, you can learn to overcome all of these problems, and if you do it will make a huge difference in your hiring prospects.

Doing what to solve them? And I still will have no answer for "Why have you had no engineering job?" Or any better examples of "how I displayed leadership qualities during an important project" beyond the ones I've used, which clearly weren't good enough. I'm asked what my goals are, where I see myself in 5 years. I have no clue. I have no real goals other than to have a steady job in a pleasant working environment. No one wants to hear that. Am I supposed to lie (which I do in such cases half the time)? Is not wanting to be a leader or have a spiffy title something deficient about me?

It. Will. Never. Work.

Here's why: What will you answer, when your prospective employer asks you, "Work unpaid? Why don't you think you deserve to get paid for your skills?" Especially in technical fields, any potential employer would rather spend money on someone who knows what they're doing, than get someone who doesn't for free. If you offer to work unpaid, any employer worth his salt will start to wonder what's wrong with you.

If I have a degree from a university, and so does the other guy, and our qualifications are the same roughly -- heck, say person B is from the same university! ...Person B will get the job over me if he is more composed during the interview. It's not a matter of knowing what you are doing in that case. And...how can any entry level engineer "know what he's doing"? I know the mathematics, computer programs, and theory, I won't know what to do with whatever company hires me. I'll have to learn their procedures and what to do. I try to research what a company uses for computer programs and devices as best I can before an interview, but most don't really give that information on the website or brochure.

I was afraid asking to work unpaid would look bad, but I thought the current economic crisis
could be my opportunity -- I ask if they're hiring, they say not currently, I offer: "I realize in the current conditions it is unlikely you would be hiring, but I would still like to work for you. Would you be willing to employ me unpaid for a trial period?" Or something to that effect. To hopefully avoid that question. So I take it then there is no way to offer unpaid work without them thinking there is something wrong with you? And there is no way to ever get a job without the standard interview cycle and competing for the job based on how well you present yourself in a small amount of time? *sigh*

Even if the company says they are not hiring (and perhaps even cutting jobs, like the semiconductor company mentioned above), I STILL should not offer to work unpaid?

If you really want to learn how to land a job, let us know... I've got more advice, but my lunch break's over.

Yes, I'd appreciate more advice. Sorry I wasted your lunch break.

 

[Pbartender]

First thing's first...

Yes, I'd appreciate more advice. Sorry I wasted your lunch break.

No, it wasn't a waste... I just didn't have enough time to finish everything I would have liked to say.

Forgive my tone, but I've gone through similar situations with both my little brothers. It may sound harsh, but in my experience you'll be better off if we tell you what should hear, which is not necessarily what you want to hear.

I don't think when I interview for a job I don't really want that I let it be obvious, though it is hard to feign enthusiasm for some things.

I know it's hard, but it's exceptionally important you do so nonetheless. A boss will never hire someone who they think is uninterested in the work, or unlikey to stick around the company.

Doing what to solve them?

Learn proper interviewing techniques. Most local Community Colleges hold classes and seminars to do just that. If you can, sign up for one. We can give you a few basic tips here, but in-person coaching is much better.

And I still will have no answer for "Why have you had no engineering job?"

Tell the truth... "I just graduated from college last year."

Or any better examples of "how I displayed leadership qualities during an important project" beyond the ones I've used, which clearly weren't good enough.

This is where the interview coaching comes in... Your examples may have been perfectly suitable, but you presented them poorly, they will fail to make an impression. Post a sample of one of these examples as you might give answer in an interview, and perhaps we can help.

I'm asked what my goals are, where I see myself in 5 years. I have no clue. I have no real goals other than to have a steady job in a pleasant working environment. No one wants to hear that.

You'd be surprised. The whole reason an employer asks this question is to make certain that all their training isn't going to go to waste, when you ditch out for a better job in six months. If you find a diplomatic way to say, "I just want a pleasant and steady job. Give me that, and I'll stayfor as long as you'll keep me," is a perfectly good answer.

Am I supposed to lie (which I do in such cases half the time)?

No need to lie, per se. Just put the best light on the truth.

Is not wanting to be a leader or have a spiffy title something deficient about me?

No. I'm much the same way. Not for lack of ability, I'm simply not ambitious enough, I don't want the extra responsibilities that go with it, and I'm unwilling to place my job that on my priority list.

Instead, you could feasibly use this as a perfectly humble answer to the inevitable question, "What's your biggest weakness."

If I have a degree from a university, and so does the other guy, and our qualifications are the same roughly -- heck, say person B is from the same university! ...Person B will get the job over me if he is more composed during the interview.

For the most part... Yes, you're right. It kind of sucks, doesn't it?

It's not a matter of knowing what you are doing in that case. And...how can any entry level engineer "know what he's doing"?

Let me be a little more clear about that... No boss will expect you to know everything about a specific job the first day out. Every job has its own procedures and duties that will need to be learned on the job. But, as you said, they will expect you to know the basics, and be able to apply those basics with some amount of intelligence to whatever task they give you.

In an interview you need to prove to the employer that you know enough about the generalities of the field to understand the tasks you will be assigned to, and that you are intelligent enough and flexible enough to be able to learn the parts that you don't know yet.

Even if the company says they are not hiring (and perhaps even cutting jobs, like the semiconductor company mentioned above), I STILL should not offer to work unpaid?

Let me state it another way...

If the company is hiring, and you've applied, don't offer to work for free. That makes you look desperate and gives a bad impression.

If the company isn't hiring, it can't possibly hurt to ask, but I wouldn't expect anything out of it.

Another tip... Just because one entry-level job at a particular company doesn't seem exciting, doesn't mean you shouldn't go after it. There may be another job at that same you might like better, and could transfer into or get promoted into later.

Remember that "where I see myself in 5 years" question? There's another good answer... "If I'm given the opportunity, I'm hoping to eventually work my way up to [Insert Enjoyable Job Here]."


More Later... Time for dinner.

 

[Baron Opal]

Pbartender is giving you some good advice.

Unless there is some certification or professional boards that you have to qualify for, offering to work for free is a bad move. Companies that are hiring professionals are hiring for talent. Talent doesn't work for free. Now, in pharmacy there are unpaid internships that are useful for experience, but those are geared toward the more regulatory aspects of the profession and are directly applicable to qualifing for our boards. Unless you have something similar in engineering, don't offer to work for free.

I expect that interviewing classes and practices will be useful for you. Even if there wasn't anything at a local college, your professional organization has a lot of resources for you. The whole point of these organizations is to help you succeed at your profession and to promote the profession in general. Try to attend the yearly meeting if you can afford it. There should be a new graduates program track that gives advice, practice interviews, networking socials and a job roster where employers come looking to hire.

 

[Baron Opal]

I'd say 90% or more of my applications never get a reply (or an automated one only). If 25% is not bad for phone interviews, then I guess my voice isn't as bad on the phone as I thought.

If I have a degree from a university, and so does the other guy, and our qualifications are the same roughly -- heck, say person B is from the same university! ...Person B will get the job over me if he is more composed during the interview.

Thinking about it, we recently hired some new technicians. During the interview process the ones that I liked:

• Were clean and well groomed.
• Smiled.
• Looked interested at their surroundings.
• Asked questions which demonstrated ignorance but an interest to learn.
• Asked questions which demonstrated experience and an interest to expand it.
• Shifted their weight from time to time in the chair, but didn't fidget.
• Had the right amount of eye contact. Didn't stare, didn't look at the carpet.
• Had their cell phone off during the interview.
• Arrived on time.
• Were engaged and interested in the project.

One guy that we hired and later fired, I remember that his clothes were kind of threadbare or cheap or otherwise substandard and he had a shiny new ~$300 cell phone. Screwy priorities.

 

[ssampier]

Hi, StreamOfTheSky. I think it can be super easy to be pessimistic about job opportunities, especially in a recession. I think your pessimism reflects negatively in your voice and posture. It happens to best of us; it certainly happens to me, at times.

I think there are opportunities out there, you just must look harder.

A few ideas:

In the rural west, we have coal fired power plants. I know, not the cleanest on the planet. However, the companies have openings for skilled engineers. It's difficult to attract them to a rural area. You may want look at a more ruralized area rather than metro city. They may or may not withstand the recession better.

My old high school buddy recently graduated with a EE degree. He is working on earning his electricians license. Is this something you have looked at? I don't know much about it otherwise.