I need feedback from experienced DM's

I'm with Rei on this. You're DM isn't doing you any favors, (not that he SHOULD but he SHOULD be fair), by having you run your butts off in this AND then some how expect you to survive. Eventually one of two things will happen. 1) You and the party will quit. 2) The DM will eventually have to cave in and fix Return to TEE, cause as it stand, you have a snow ball chance in Hell, Abyss AND Tarterus of getting through this.
 

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Re

I can't believe this story. 1,500 gold to start a lvl 10 character? 21 character deaths? The banning of 4 very reasonable spells?This is all absurd.

One of the three things is happening here:
1. You're just playing with people's minds.
2. Your DM is a moron and you should find a new gaming group.
3. You're very young and you will learn how lousy your DM is one day.
 

I'm not going to say you're DM is a bad DM... but did you say you didn't have a DMG while playing? Because the DMG is pretty clear on things like equipment for characters starting above 1st level, it also some wonderful sections on recommended treasure for encounters and how to balance encounters. In fact it is chock full of information that most DM's find... well.... necessary to running a game. Does he not own a copy? Perhaps the group could get together and pool their funds to get one if he doesn't have the spare cash, in return for which he might actually reward players for playing and let them actually enjoy the game... what's with banning the Headband of Intellect? Is he afraid that you'll have a different arbitrary number than he's used to dealing with? It really does seem like he's not treating you fairly. Please encourage him to post here so we can all tear him apart directly... I mean offer constructive criticism.
 

Experienced DM but not for 3rd edition...

My gut reaction to your situation is that since Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil was a module designed on the foundation of an entire system, i.e, a system without any homebrew modifications, then it is unbalancing for the DM to modify the abilities, spell capabilities and resources in the core rulebook without modifying the module appropriately. I could understand banning the splatbooks, though.

I myself have still never looked inside the module, even though I quit in the middle of the campaign and it's been at least three months since the rest of the troupe ended it. I would hope that the text would have suggestions on how to handle certain spells that could shortcut the adventure to death.

M
 

Time to speak up...

Hi all,

I am the DM of Ormraxes, and he has asked me to read this thread and bring my own comments to the table. It seems like this board is mostly dominated by players, and not DMs (I could be wrong), so I'm probably sticking my head into a hornet's nest here, but here we go... ;-)

First, I'd like to make clear a few points about our campaign:

- The campaign is definitely NOT "low-magic". We use the standard D&D 3E rules for magic and magic items. Except for a handful of high-level spells which the players (as of yet) don't have access to (because I've restricted them), all PHB spells are available to players of appropriate level and class. This includes all the standard spells such as fly, invisibility, fireball, disintegrate, etc. and even some spells from DotF, MotW and T&B. It should also be noted that the majority of the player characters have been spellcasters (clerics, druids, sorcerers, wizards) or at least had some spellcasting ability (paladins, various multiclassed characters).

- The campaign is not "poor". The wealth level is reasonable. Starting characters, whether 1st or 10th level, always have enough gold to buy whatever mundane equipment they require. Concerning RttToEE specifically, I rarely modify the amount of treasure from what the module states, unless it is an unreasonably large amount of treasure to be found guarded by very weak opponents (ie. five orcs each with 1,000 gp gems in their pockets).

- The player characters have extremely good stats. I basically allow the players to roll their stats until they're satisfied, which means people usually have two 18's and usually no stats lower than 12.

Now, more to the point:

- Every group plays D&D differently, and it is the duty of the DM to balance the game, making it enjoyable for his players and himself. When using a pre-written module (such as RttToEE), the DM must make some adjustments to the adventure to make sure it is properly challenging and suited to the play style of the players. I guess Ormraxes didn't mention that I replaced a blue dragon (which would have TPK'ed the party) with a wyvern (which only ended up killing an NPC). So this is not about the DM trying bully around with the players.

- Our group is very experienced, having played (A)D&D for 10 years. I've DM'ed several year-long campaigns in those 10 years. I know my players and they are a very resourceful, clever and experienced bunch. Ormraxes (we know him better as the "Scrawny Mnemonic") is a Rules Lawyer and a Min/Maxer if there ever was one. (He will of course tell you otherwise, but I've known him for a long time -- he's a good friend -- and I'm not so easily fooled by his machinations any more.)

- All DM's have their own house rules. In my campaign, I restrict a few (high-level) spells, and give starting characters less money than the DMG says. And that spells dooom for a group of crack roll-players going through RttToEE??? Gimme a break.

- I have my own reasons for restricting certain spells and magical items, based on what I believe would upset the balance of the game. Maybe it wouldn't upset things in a big way, or in the short run, but I believe that it is better to err on the side of caution. The restricted spells and items can always be introduced later -- it's far more difficult to remove them from the game.

- Another poster said the DMG contained lots of advice about running the game; my favorite advice is that all the rulebooks are simply "guidelines" and it's up to the DM to modify the rules as he wishes -- though I'm not blind to the fact that both the players and the DM must enjoy the game -- after all, it is a game and we are playing it to have fun.

- My players are still, I think, trying to adjust to the open-ended scenario that RttToEE is. They are free to explore anywhere, even though they might encounter things which are far above their (current) power level. They are sometimes too used to thinking along the lines of "well, if it's in the adventure, we're supposed to beat it and take it's treasure". I want to make the adventure and the campaign world a dynamic place where the outcome of things is far from pre-determined.


I'll be watching this thread with interest for any comments (I don't doubt there will be a lot of them...). However, I'd like to ask everyone to not discuss any specifics of RttToEE, or else you will ruin the game both for me, Ormraxes, and the other players in my group.


- thulsa


BTW, I'd might as well put in a shameless plug for my pet project, an adaptation of the Hyborian Age setting and the world of Conan the Barbarian for D&D and the D20 system. See the link in the signature below.

=================================================================
Roleplaying in Robert E. Howard's Swords & Sorcery World of Conan
The Hyborian Age d20 Campaign Web Site - http://hyboria.xoth.net
Maps - Characters - Gods - Monsters - Spells - Items & Artifacts
=================================================================
 

Well, Thulsa (or should I call you Mr Doom?) :) I think you're an uncommonly tough GM, even by my standards (and I regularly get slagged off for being too tough on these boards, if not by my players) but if your group is having a good time, fair enough. If they're not (and there appears to be some discontent!) well, I wouldn't want you to run a game you don't enjoy running, so I'm not going to tell you to allow any spell in the PHB without modification or let new PCs come in with full starting wealth. Still, you might consider lightening up a little bit - sometimes us killer GMs just don't know when to stop, you know? :)
4,5, 6 dead PCs in a scenario, fair enough. 22 - well, the most I ever managed was 18, and I was 15 at the time, plus those were mostly intra-PC assassinations. 22 is really pushing the envelope if you're not playing 'Paranoia'. Perhaps you might consider letting the 10th level PC come in with a bit more starting gear than 1500 or 2000 gp? We're discussing this in the Poll on starting cash right now, if you look you'll see me arguing with the over-generous (dare I say Monty Haul?) GMs who foolishly let their PCs come in with Standard gear from the DMG. We both know they're misguided, but maybe you'll like my idea of gear-by-Encounter Level table.

Cheers,

Simon
 

S'mon said:
Perhaps you might consider letting the 10th level PC come in with a bit more starting gear than 1500 or 2000 gp? We're discussing this in the Poll on starting cash right now, if you look you'll see me arguing with the over-generous (dare I say Monty Haul?) GMs who foolishly let their PCs come in with Standard gear from the DMG. We both know they're misguided, but maybe you'll like my idea of gear-by-Encounter Level table.
I agree with what Simon said...

Here's a link to the thread he mentioned, BTW. :)
 

Re: Time to speak up...

i think what concerns me most are the number of PC deaths

thulsa said:
Our group is very experienced, having played (A)D&D for 10 years. I've DM'ed several year-long campaigns in those 10 years. I know my players and they are a very resourceful, clever and experienced bunch.

so it's not poor tactics or rookie mistakes that are getting the PCs killed. so that begs the question:

Thulsa, why do you think there have been so many PC deaths?
 

I will have to disagree with you a bit...

I think most of the people here (probably 50% or higher) are currently or have been DM's. Most "pure" players, in my experience, don't have the level of interest to regularly visit sites like this and wade through posts. There are exceptions to every rule of course, my statement is a broad generality.

I think you're being overly hard on your players, spell bannings aside (can you go into detail as to why you banned them?). If nothing else, you're killing too many of them. To me, D&D is about role-playing an in-depth character that has a realistic personality, a character the players care about and you have added depth to. A character that you will see grow and mature through an interesting story. If you continually kill off the players (even if they deserve it), you don't allow them to develop their character. They grow calous and uncaring for their characters, since they know they will likely not live long. That kind of thing might work for a short campaign, but if you are looking to have a long term campaign, it only detracts from it.

In my opinion, a DM's job is to entertain your players (and yourself :)); even if it's "realistic" to kill off the players all the time... I wouldn't do it. Adapt your campaign to fit their style, even if they aren't the smartest bunch of folks and keep running into the dragon's lair holding nothing but a spoon.

It's better to run a fun, entertaining and "unbalanced" campaign then to run a campaign that is 100% "balanced" but that's frustrating and overly-difficult.

-Arravis

p.s.: btw, I'm a DM :)
 


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