I never realized how Darkvision negates Hide

[Darklone]

Hmm. As long as crawling in high grass gives you cover... I don't mind.

 

[Steverooo]

Is it really that silly to think that someone standing in the open in a bare, well-lit corridor cannot hide?? Because that's what standing in a bare, darkened corridor in front of something with darkvision equates to.

Yes, it is (to me, at least, considering that I have done it on many occasions). YMMV (that's "Your Mileage May Vary", to any non-abbreviators).

Hiding from someone in broad daylight is easy. If it weren't, how could you tail anyone? Look again at the "Hide" skill description in the 3.5e PHB, page 76: "Use this skill to sink back into the shadows and proceed unseen, to approach a wizard's tower under cover of brush, or to tail someone through a busy street without being noticed." (emphasis added)

So what are all those people doing out on the street, making it busy, at night? Hasta be night, otherwise it wouldn't be shadowed, rihjt? Only other explanation is that the people making the street busy, themselves, provide the Concealment... (or that tailing is just old, inconsequential flavor text that needs to be removed, and that rogues can't actually do this)!

Naturally, neither of those "solutions" is great. People might provide cover/concealment, but if so, it would work in combat, too! Saying you can't tail is just dumb...

Hiding from someone on a bright, sunny day is easy. So is tailing them. I have done it; indoors, outdoors, and even on a ten-speed bicycle... All you have to do is to get right up behind them, move quietly, and stay out of their line-of-sight if they turn. (Naturally, if they suspect they're being followed, it becomes much tougher; say +10 to tail while unaware, -10 once they know something's there). This is the first way to hide without concealment. There ARE others!

One of the more obvious (if not easiest) is to be flat against the ceiling. While this only works if you are behind or very close to the critter you're hiding from, people rarely look up, they look around. Unfortunately, 3e (and 3.5) doesn't allow for such tactics, due to their "no facing" rule (which is why "Backstab" also became "Sneak Attack")!

As for Backstabbing (excuse me, Sneak Attacking) someone who does turn, and who is looking around, see a typical stealth book, such as The Art of Invisibility, by Ashide Kim...

Y'see, even the best-sighted Humans have little better than a 180-degree field of vision, and most folks have less. Now while it may be nearly impossible to sneak up on a Beholder (except from below), it is perfectly possible to sneak up behind someone, where they can't SEE you! No Hide required, just move quietly. It happens, in bright sunlight, all the time. See any good military training manual, under "Sentry Stalking", or such-like.

Once close to a "target" (and I mean, like, right behind them!), a well-versed operative can turn WITH them, so that, even if they DO turn to look behind them, the operative will STILL be outside their visual range, and therefore "invisible".

Again, this can't be done with 3.5e rules. It just works in real life!

Next trick; Camouflage! In the "good old 1e days", camouflage wasn't a 13th level special ability given only to one class (Hide was)! It was an integral part of the Hide skill. In order to Hide in Shadows, you were assumed to be dressed in dark clothing! Nowadays, the best you can hope for is a measley +2 Circumstance Modifier (assuming the GM will even give you that much, and not simply tell you "Sorry, you have to be a 13th level Ranger, to do that!")

So, to "fix" things, I'd allow Hide to be used in any light, and camo to be an integral part of Hide. When moving down a well-lighted corridor, I'd assume the Hider was moving slowly (built into the rules since 3e), was dressed appropiately, and was using the "tricks of the trade", freezing into an odd shape when the target looked their way.

Can a Doppleganger or Mimic hide in a well-lit room? SURE it can (if it has even half a brain). Assume the shape of a chair, dead body, etc. Can a Wizard cast an illusion of a wall and hide in the brightly-lit room? Of course! Can any foolf pull a sack over themselves, lie quiet, and be "hidden in plain sight"? Why sure! The real question with a skilled PC is: Is magic superior to skill? I vote No!

"The Tricks of the Trade" I won't get into, but the eye can be fooled. That's how camouflage works. You want to hide at night, one of the things you learn to do is to break up the body's outline, so that you don't present a man-like shape. Bending at the waist, using a cloak, using camo to blend into the wall, etc. 3(.5)e allows for none of that. These, too, should all be integral parts of the Hide skill.

For whatever it's worth, though, I don't believe that the architects of 3.5e intended to make Rogues unable to Backsta -uh, "Sneak Attack" - in shadows. Technically, I guess (maybe!) they can't, but I don't think it was intended! The "Light" section in the "Adventuring" chapter of the PHB says that you can SEE (dimly) in shadows, so I think that allows Sneak Attacks, and the "No Sneak Attacks against opponents with Concealment" rule was meant for Total Concealment.

As for invisibility, I'd get rid of the double-whammy of "You have to beat a Spot DC:20 by 20 or more to locate them, and can't attack until you do!", and simply make it "A DC:20 Spot check locates the creature" (most classes have a 5% chance, but Druids, Rangers, Rogues, and (IIRC) Monks have a 50% chance at 10th level, sans stat bonuses and magic), or even "Spotting an Invisible critter requires beating their Hide check by 20 or more". I'd also say that you can aim in a general direction (through multiple squares) with only the 50% miss chance already in place. That's enough penalty, right there.

All just IMHO. YMMV.

 

[Steverooo]

My suggestion - what on earth does your dungeon have totally clean, straight, well-repaired corridors with monsters at the end of them for if you want the rogue to scout them??

Because, IMHO, Hide works in any light (see above). This isn't really the question...

Why on Earth does my GM's dungeon have totally clean, straight, well-repaired corridors with monsters at the end of them for if they want the rogue to scout them??

Because the rogues have been able to for 30 years, perhaps?
Because real-life experience leads the GM to conclude that it is possible?

Besides, what difference does it make if the walls are totally clean? Suppose they're rough fieldstone, and covered in slimes and molds... Does that allow hiding in them? If they're not well-repaired, does that?

 

[DM2]

Can't argue with your choice for house rules...but on a side note I'd take issue with any reference to Ashida Kim as anything but a wanna-be that took advantage of the hype around "ninjas" in the 80s to push out some books.

Do some searches on e-budo.com to find some interesting discussions of his "bad budo".

Not really relevant to your points though...carry on.

DM2