D&D General "I roll Persuasion."

[Reynard]

True, but if you do it's not through some forced mental combat sequence. It's through reason or trickery, neither of which involve mental hit points and attacks. And is actually fairly rare. In my experience people rarely change their minds or behaviors.

First of all, the intent wouldn't be to model the real world. We don't do that with combat or anywhere else in D&D, so why would we do it in the social pillar. The point, rather, is to create a reliable, fun to use system that allows us to abstract something like a legal debate or an audience with an unsympathetic ruler or tricking information out of a spy or any other of a number of archtypical "social combat" scenarios we see in inspirational media. But like with combat and other physical things, we kind of want a realistic-ish feeling.

 

[Maxperson]

First of all, the intent wouldn't be to model the real world. We don't do that with combat or anywhere else in D&D, so why would we do it in the social pillar. The point, rather, is to create a reliable, fun to use system that allows us to abstract something like a legal debate or an audience with an unsympathetic ruler or tricking information out of a spy or any other of a number of archtypical "social combat" scenarios we see in inspirational media. But like with combat and other physical things, we kind of want a realistic-ish feeling.

I don't mind something like this(though I don't think it's needed) for use against NPCs, but like 5e's social skills, they shouldn't be usable on PCs.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But what he experienced instead was being utterly useless in combat because a player with system mastery knew that in FATE how effective you are in combat is largely determined by how effectively you can make calls and convince the GM you are cool. In other words, your personality as the player is the biggest combat advantage to you because GM is so powerful and the game is geared to entertaining the GM if you want to succeed at anything. So what happened is Will found himself continually overshadowed as a more experienced player made calls that the GM's creator liked and allowed him to stack massive stacks of dice on his combat actions.

that is the way I feel some people run social encounters in D&D... game the DM out of game and dump anything needed to roll

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Have you ever played FATE or a similar game?

no

More pertinently, have you watched the video I was referring to yet. If you have, I'll talk about the monkey's paw wish moments that really rubbed me the wrong way.

not yet I marked the channel on my phone but I am waiting to have a bigger screen

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think you should. I think it is very important to call out that in traditional play, the GM's fiat is mostly intended to be spent in the preparation for the game.

I don't think that this is true for 5e. The biggest mantra of the game designers is "Rulings(DM fiat) over rules." That tells us that DM fiat is expected/intended to be used throughout the entire process of game play.

 

[Reynard]

I don't mind something like this(though I don't think it's needed) for use against NPCs, but like 5e's social skills, they shouldn't be usable on PCs.

IMO, players in an RPG should be able to handle losing a social contest and having to give up some thing or do some thing their character would rather not but was forced to. it happens all the time in the inspirational fiction.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

True, but if you do it's not through some forced mental combat sequence. It's through reason or trickery, neither of which involve mental hit points and attacks. And is actually fairly rare. In my experience people rarely change their minds or behaviors.

do you not believe in people that are just able to talk you into things? Even disregarding grifter/conmen what about simple salesmen. Have you never seen a salesman sell someone something they don't need?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't think that this is true for 5e. The biggest mantra of the game designers is "Rulings(DM fiat) over rules." That tells us that DM fiat is expected/intended to be used throughout the entire process of game play.

Yeah... I can't imagine that the Rulings not rules mantra fits no fiat at all...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

IMO, players in an RPG should be able to handle losing a social contest and having to give up some thing or do some thing their character would rather not but was forced to. it happens all the time in the inspirational fiction.

yeah In fact I would argue the 'rogue' in most fiction is more likely to talk someone into something then place a precise blow that deals massive damage

 

[Maxperson]

IMO, players in an RPG should be able to handle losing a social contest and having to give up some thing or do some thing their character would rather not but was forced to. it happens all the time in the inspirational fiction.

Not in RPGs. Outside of some sort of magical/chemical control of the PCs, players in RPGs have agency over what their PCs think, say and do(or at least attempt to do).

I can guarantee you that I would never even consider playing a game where some random NPC could walk up and force my PC to do something he would never do.