D&D General "I roll Persuasion."

When you say, "The social system works on exactly the same mechanical basis as combat", how much fiat do you think FATE actually requires?

So, there's several places in gaming where GM fiat can happen. Like, in D&D, adventure design is a ginormous wad of GM fiat, but we typically ignore that when we talk about fiat. This can skew our overall perception of how much fiat a game actually entails. Moreover, we have no measure of fiat.

So, I'm going to answer a little differently, especially since our focus seems to be on task and conflict resolution. I'd say that Fate requires far less effort on the GM's part to enforce things than most traditional systems. By and large, a Fate GM is best off saying "No" only when what the player proposes is widely out of line for the genre or established narrative. The game is highly suited to "Yes, and..." approaches to play.

I've watched FATE played by one of it's creator, and it gives vastly more power to the GM to arbitrate outcomes arbitrarily than is generally expected of D&D.

So, how much power is given, and how much use of that power is required, are not anywhere near the same thing.

Moreover, I can give some push-back on much of that being arbitrarily deciding outcomes. D&D task resolution has two states - success and failure. Fate has failure, success with consequence, success, and success with style.

In success with cost/consequence (in other systems as well, not just Fate), the GM is supposed to add content to the situation. It is NOT actually arbitrarily assigning an outcome to the task at hand. If you are trying to pick a lock, and you succeed with a cost... that lock is still well and truly picked. That outcome is what it is.

However, the GM is now also supposed to add something that makes life more difficult - like a guard coming down the hall. This is NO LESS FIAT than a D&D GM deciding in their adventure design that guards come down the hall every 5 rounds. It is just that the time that fiat is made is different.

This becomes more clear when you realize that a skilled Fate GM is not stipulating much in their adventure prep. In Fate, the GM has a sketch by comparison to a typical D&D GM, knowing that the system is going to add in loads of opportunities to add content later, as part of the process of play.


In my opinion, the whole game is Rule Zero with color, and as ran it felt adversarial to me. I have never felt more sorry for Wil Wheaton, whom I'm not generally inclined to empathize with, than watching him struggling to play FATE. And as this thread is somewhat an extension of the prior one, I have to feel that FATE made the whole game about leveraging personal charisma to influence the GM.

I cannot speak to Wil Wheaton's experience, specifically, as I have not seen it. I can say that many people familiar with traditional games, in which the character sheet dictates some very specific and fixed abilities you are expected to use, can have issues when approaching the open and narratively-leaning Fate.

The format of the session as an event that is as much a performance for viewers as it is a session of play may also enter into it in ways I could not really diagnose without seeing it.

All in all, a traditional player trying Fate for the first time for broadcast... maybe wasn't a great idea to begin with?
 

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So what would be a good system to deal with something like a PC and and NPC having opposed goals and they both go to the king (also an NPC) looking to get the king on their side? The GM can't really argue with himself, so leaving it as a purely roleplaying thing won't work 9unless you enlist another player to temporarily fill one of the NPC roles).
In my system described above, you would set the number of successes the NPC had, and fluff the actual debate. This may be a good way to illustrate the system to new players by calling out exactly what the NPC is doing.
 

I don't think it is to make a new house rule, I think it is to put out into the zeitgeist of DnD peeps the idea and discus the pros and cons (I may be wrong I am not the op) BUT saying "there is no such rule" isn't really something that has any meaning in a talk about a theoretical new rule/idea...

You might want to re-read the thread to see how this unfolded. I just did.
 


So, there's several places in gaming where GM fiat can happen. Like, in D&D, adventure design is a ginormous wad of GM fiat, but we typically ignore that when we talk about fiat.

I don't think you should. I think it is very important to call out that in traditional play, the GM's fiat is mostly intended to be spent in the preparation for the game. The GM, by fiat, creates a scenario that he intends to be balanced and corresponds to some concrete reality - "this is the way". Then the expectation is that having spent that fiat before the session, his preparation becomes a constraint on his arbitration within the session. He's expected to treat his preparation much like a contract between himself and the players, and although since he's the secret keeper the players can't really know when he breaks that contract, he his supposed to view breaking it himself as a sign of his own failures in preparation and resolve to do better. In other words, the fiat in traditional play is moved into the preparation phase as a way to limit it. It's intended to prevent the GM from using fiat to produce his own preferred outcome at all points in the story. That is the GM is not supposed to use his omnipotence to create whatever situation he feels is needed right then. He is supposed to let it play out the vast majority of the time.

Whereas FATE very much encourages the GM to flex his omnipotence during the game to create obstacles and problems in response to the players efforts. In D&D, creating new resources in order to keep alive a favored NPC villain is considered bad form. In FATE, it's considered normal and even encouraged.

Player control over the narrative therefore depends not on the game, but no an on going metagame conversation.

By and large, a Fate GM is best off saying "No" only when what the player proposes is widely out of line for the genre or established narrative. The game is highly suited to "Yes, and..." approaches to play.

Personally, as a player I find no real distinction between "No" and "Yes, and..." except that "Yes, and..." feels far more frustrating and adversarial to me in practice. Consider the two scenarios:

Player: May I have a cupcake?
DM: No.
Player: Alright, may I have a cookie?

Player: May I have a cupcake?
DM: Yes, and when you take a bite out of it, it has live roach in it!
Player: I think I'm going to skip the cookie.

Moreover, I can give some push-back on much of that being arbitrarily deciding outcomes. D&D task resolution has two states - success and failure. Fate has failure, success with consequence, success, and success with style.

In practice I find that this simply allows the FATE GM to decide whatever consequences he wants based on his arbitrary definitions of the above terms. In most traditional RPGs, the rules present a sort of contract the specifies how the fictional positioning will be changed by your success so that you know if you ask for a cookie and pass your fortune test, you will at least get a cookie. But in FATE...

In success with cost/consequence (in other systems as well, not just Fate), the GM is supposed to add content to the situation. It is NOT actually arbitrarily assigning an outcome to the task at hand. If you are trying to pick a lock, and you succeed with a cost... that lock is still well and truly picked. That outcome is what it is.

As you say, I never know what I'm going to get. The lock may be well and truly picked, but because it is "success with a cost" the thing I may get with my cookie may in fact be much worse than not getting the cookie at all. And since the GM is empowered to impose this on the fiction based on his whim and not his preparation, I can literally find myself in circumstances were "success" feels worse than defeat and my relationship to my character is actively harmed and my larger goals impeded in a way that "the lock doesn't open" would not. In requires very much letting go in my experience of actually caring about what happens and just going with the flow.

However, the GM is now also supposed to add something that makes life more difficult - like a guard coming down the hall. This is NO LESS FIAT than a D&D GM deciding in their adventure design that guards come down the hall every 5 rounds. It is just that the time that fiat is made is different.

But when the fiat is made actually makes an enormous amount of difference in terms of the GMs stance as referee and arbiter. Making the guards come every 5 rounds puts a limit on the power of the GM in terms of how present and numerous the guards are. If I can decide, "Well gee, this corridor needs guards to be here." during the running of the scenario, there is actually very little narrative force I have to yield to the players at all.

This becomes more clear when you realize that a skilled Fate GM is not stipulating much in their adventure prep. In Fate, the GM has a sketch by comparison to a typical D&D GM, knowing that the system is going to add in loads of opportunities to add content later, as part of the process of play.

Yes. Yes, very much. Roaches in my cupcakes, for example.

I cannot speak to Wil Wheaton's experience, specifically, as I have not seen it.

I don't know Wil and have never wanted to really, so I can't speak to it either. But Wil has a "face like glass" that I think is very easy to read, my reading of him was that he was often frustrated. Wil built his first FATE character and he decided that he was going to be the party muscle as it were and he invested hard in combat skills probably with the expectation that he would then get his spotlight in combat.

But what he experienced instead was being utterly useless in combat because a player with system mastery knew that in FATE how effective you are in combat is largely determined by how effectively you can make calls and convince the GM you are cool. In other words, your personality as the player is the biggest combat advantage to you because GM is so powerful and the game is geared to entertaining the GM if you want to succeed at anything. So what happened is Will found himself continually overshadowed as a more experienced player made calls that the GM's creator liked and allowed him to stack massive stacks of dice on his combat actions.

I can say that many people familiar with traditional games, in which the character sheet dictates some very specific and fixed abilities you are expected to use, can have issues when approaching the open and narratively-leaning Fate.

Yes, that's one way to put it.

But the other thing that I got out of watching that session was all the roaches in the cupcakes. It was all the times that it was "Yes you succeed, but I really don't want you to win that easily so lets invent a new problem" or "Yes you succeed but it comes at the price of your immortal soul" sort of things that for me would represent I never would have imagined was at stake in the proposition to begin with and which would not have been in Trad play.
 
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Where it has helped me as DM to have more social encounter rules/guidelines was almost entirely behind the screen during prolonged and tense negotiations.

It wasn't about inventing new "moves" or creating "social hit points" or anything like that. It was firmly grounded in the fiction.

My notes (abbreviated, as I'm retyping) looked like:

Convincing Lord Polding to let them guide refugees across his lands
Polding's 1st question: "..." (requires 1 success to satisfy him)
Polding's 2nd question: "..." (requires 2 successes to satisfy him)
Polding's 3rd question: "..." (requires 3 successes to satisfy him)
Polding's 4th question: "..." (requires 4 successes to satisfy him)

The questions provide structure and something for the players to respond to and think about. They help illustrate Polding's character and the overall situation.

The idea being that the 1st question is the simplest (e.g. "who are you to come to my court with this riffraf?"), while subsequent questions become more complex / nuanced / challenging, so there's more substance to weave a narrative around.

A "success" was whatever made sense given the context of the question – it might be recalling and mentioning something they previously learned, it might be a previous quest that Lord Polding heard about, it might be a Charisma (Intimidation) or (Persuasion) check with a clever verbal argument leveraging a known weakness of Polding, it might be proposing some treasure to "sweeten the pot", it might be a particular spell, etc. A "success" is NOT just rolling dice.

Then the total number of successes helps determine Polding's response. 9+ might mean he gives the PCs everything they want with very little asked in return (at least right now). 7-8 successes might be a success but Polding makes a high ask. 5-6 successes might be mixed results with some counterproposal that the players aren't too keen on. 4 or fewer successes might be Polding's treachery revealed as he stalls for time and sells them out to whoever is pursuing the refugees, or maybe he outright denies them and warns they'll face his soldiers if they try to cross his lands illegally.

Basically, it's my adaptation of the skill challenge concept for a negotiation scene.
 

Player: May I have a cupcake?
DM: No.
Player: Alright, may I have a cookie?

Player: May I have a cupcake?
DM: Yes, and when you take a bite out of it, it has live roach in it!
Player: I think I'm going to skip the cookie.
what in the monkeys paw wish type of DM do you play under!?!?!

I would think more of
Player: May I play a spell fire?
DM: No.
Player: Alright, may I be a dragon?

Player: May I play a spell fire?
DM: Yes, and that will make things more complex as you will make yourself a target even if you try to hide it
 


I have not only in real life given up because 'it's not worth it to argue' but I regularly do on these boards
Given up is different from agreeing that the other person is right, which is very different from what people are saying here, that if you lose the argument you actually are mind controlled into believing the person told you or are forced to do what they want.
 

Notwithstanding people of superhuman emotional control, my point was that you don't need magic to change someone's mind or behavior.
True, but if you do it's not through some forced mental combat sequence. It's through reason or trickery, neither of which involve mental hit points and attacks. And is actually fairly rare. In my experience people rarely change their minds or behaviors.
 

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