I swing my sword

[Janx]

I don't want to derail this into a rule discussion but really, how would you do that in 3e/4e beyond DM fiat? And won't "experienced" DMs handle those ad hoc rules better than the novice DM who might not even allow it. After all, there are no "pick up random large objects and fling them" rules in either game. It sounds like a ranged trip attempt (as you hope to knock them down, right?) Maybe give them unwanted cover (there's a table on your chest and you are prone).

Thats a really good question.

There's a plethora of "actions" a PC could take in a combat that there aren't really rules for.

Some GMs may have a penchant for nerfing those actions, for fear of it becoming overpowered or overused.

 

[The Shaman]

Hmm, I am suddenly reminded of 4Es mantra, "you don't need rules to roleplay", and from the comment above, I'm starting to feel the same way towards combat stunts - just page 42 'em and drop the stuff like Tide of Iron.

Thats a really good question.

Yeah, it really is.

I'm not a 4e player, but it definitely fits my general preference for a single rule which can be applied broadly versus lots of fiddly rules.

There's a plethora of "actions" a PC could take in a combat that there aren't really rules for.

That's been true of rpgs since the beginning, which is why the referee was such a novel inclusion.

Some GMs may have a penchant for nerfing those actions, for fear of it becoming overpowered or overused.

Does page 42 really eliminate this?

 

[Janx]

Does page 42 really eliminate this?

beats me, I don't have a 4e book to read page 42 from.

You kind of quoted me quoting somebody I didn't quote. makes it misleading.

I do agree that pretty much all RPGs have gaps in their rule coverage where the players may try to attempt a stunt and the GM has to wing it.

 

[Mort]

Does page 42 really eliminate this?

No, but it gives guidelines as to how to adjuticate actions "not covered by the rules" - with examples, tables, etc. The better the guidelines for handling these situations, the more DMs (at least in theory) will allow players to try stuff not necessarily covered.

I will say (from seeing it at several Gen Cons for ex., which helped me make sure it doesn't happen in my own group), 4e can be very guilty of "I swing my sword" mentality; many of the combat actions are so codified (they have their own manuever names, usually on cards, sometimes even in color)! It takes a good DM to remind players (especially new players) that the manuevers are far from the only options available.

 

[Barastrondo]

I actually think that a lot of the inspiration to try things other than "I swing my sword" comes from the context of any given fight. For example, one of my most successful recent battles came from setting up a situation in which there was an interesting enemy leader-type in an interesting position (atop an immense dragon-turtle golem that was pinned under the rubble of a building), and there were a couple of interesting approaches to his position (such as a crumbled thin bridge that led to a five-foot gap between a nearby building and the rubble pinning the golem). The players immediately focused on fighting their way to that bridge and making that jump, because it was there.

Set a fight in an old sawmill with the blade still running? Players will try to hurl enemies into the blade. Put a big smoking brazier of glowing coals in a torture chamber? Players will try to kick it over onto someone, or hurl coals in an enemy's face. And if they don't immediately think of it, they will the first time the enemy gives it a try.

Rules can absolutely influence "I swing my sword"itis. The more reliable things like forced movement are, the more players will try them. But I think it's also helpful to consider just how many encounters players have in bare stone rooms, large caverns with no distinct features, wide-open courtyards or rolling plains. Kickass environmental design will do wonders for putting that crafty glint in your players' eyes.

 

[Scott DeWar]

an alternative to the fighter saying : I swing my sword

In a campain form the 1980's some time, after the unearthed arcana came out, we had an evil party with a half orc fighter and a halfling thief. Iconic and sterotyped? Yes, but we had fun with it. I seem to recal the half orc throwing the halfling behind the defensive line of the opponants to gain back stab. Effective as long as there was not a low topped doorway to obstruct the balistic halfling thief.

eventually the fighter was allowed to have a proficiency in 'Halfling tossing" that waas used to good effect when we needed to tet to a second floor window. Tye halfling to rope toss halfling and keep throwing until he makes it through the window.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I lost a gnome Ftr/Thief- "Fast Eddie" Edlyrith- to a Cave Fisher as the Half-Orc Barbarian threw her across a chasm. It snagged her out of the air, she failed her paralysis save, and it ate her, slurping up the rope like spaghetti.

Good times, good times.

 

[Scott DeWar]

I really hate cave fischers.

 

[The Shaman]

I actually think that a lot of the inspiration to try things other than "I swing my sword" comes from the context of any given fight. . . .Kickass environmental design will do wonders for putting that crafty glint in your players' eyes.

Wholeheartedly agree.

This doesn't need to be complicated - it just needs to suggest options. Last game-night for our Flashing Blades game, the adventurers found themselves in a duel in a courtyard at the junction of two alleys; one of the players immediately sent his character around the block to approach the courtyard from the opposite alley, to come up behind one of the seconds to the duel, in case things turned dodgy (which of course they did).

Today, in an OD&D game, we found ourselves running from a salamander; we quickly decided that the fountain we found on another level would be our rally point.

 

[ExploderWizard]

No, but it gives guidelines as to how to adjuticate actions "not covered by the rules" - with examples, tables, etc. The better the guidelines for handling these situations, the more DMs (at least in theory) will allow players to try stuff not necessarily covered.

Unless I remember incorrectly, page 42 guidelines don't address any issues beyond damage based on level and repeatability. When all is said and done, the table gives you a "I swing my sword" simple damage result.

Beyond that, the merit of the plan or maneuver isn't taken into consideration when applying results. A brilliant idea well executed by a level 2 character pales in comparison to the most uninspired boring action executed by an 11th level character.

I have never understood the need for knowing the predefined odds and mechanical effects for every attempted action.
Part of the fun of trying weird stunts is not knowing if it will fail completely, succeed as planned, or possibly succeed in ways yet unimagined.

Do the heroes in fantasy fiction only attempt plans that seem to generate predictable results? 9 times out of 10 when discussing a course of action someone will ask, "do you think this will work?". Oftentimes the answer will be along the lines of, "I have no idea."