I think I have finally "put my finger on it"

[Treebore]

As to why I fear I am not going to be happy with 4E.

Finger number one: Despite the apparent emphsis on "party roles" when I try to figure out how they are going to do this, based on the admittedly shaky/sketchy info, it sounds to me like they are moving away, but by no means abandoning, the importance of "the party".

"Why?", I guess your asking. Well, to me, a party needs each other. You need the mage to counter the mages or clerics of your opponents. You need the Cleric to counter the clerics or mages of your opponents and to help your party quickly recover for the next battle. You need the fighter types to keep people off of the spellcasters while they cast their spells to bring down the enemy, and if the opportunity arises, interfere with enemy spellcasters trying to do the same to your group. Thieves are needed to safely travel through highhly secured and well guarded locations.

So in 4E I am concerned their attempts to "equalize the classes" will go so far that the importance of the group will almost dissappear. Hopefully these WOTC game designers are brilliant enough to achieve "class equality" without sacrificing "the party" too much.

Finger number two: Prep time. I still don't believe the DM work load is going to be substantially reduced enough to make me happy to DM 4E. If I still need to buy PC generators and other "DM tools" to significantly reduce Prep time, I'll still be staying away from 4E as a DM.

Finger number 3, and my biggest over all problem. 4E is sounding less and less like what D&D fantasy is to me. The way it is sounding to me I already have 4E. Its called "Exalted" or "Big Eyes Small Mouth". So if 4E is indeed moving towards the flavor and feel of these types of fantasy then it is definitely moving beyond me. I play D&D for a specific flavor with specific "tropes"; I think is how it is referred to.

Yes, I am sure I could ignore, or house rule, what ruins 4E for me, but why bother? Why buy another system that I would have to ignore a significant portion of to get the kind of game I want? Especially since I already own them?

So I have now "put my finger on" my key concerns about 4E. I hope my fears/concerns are unfounded on all fronts.

 

[whydirt]

Finger number 3, and my biggest over all problem. 4E is sounding less and less like what D&D fantasy is to me. The way it is sounding to me I already have 4E. Its called "Exalted" or "Big Eyes Small Mouth". So if 4E is indeed moving towards the flavor and feel of these types of fantasy then it is definitely moving beyond me. I play D&D for a specific flavor with specific "tropes"; I think is how it is referred to.

Like it or not, D&D has always incorporated the fantasy "flavor of the month" into the game since its beginning. To think that the game would always and only allude to what was popular 30 years ago seems a bit short-sighted to me. In fact, I'd offer that if the new edition didn't include modern fantasy influences that it'd be less true to the original game.

However, for curiosity's sake, what exactly in 4th Edition reminds you of those other games? What are the "tropes" that are defining to D&D to you that you think will be lost?

 

[DaveMage]

The farther they go away from what has gone before, the happier I'll be....



...because then it will be even easier to stay with 3.5.

 

[Doug McCrae]

So in 4E I am concerned their attempts to "equalize the classes" will go so far that the importance of the group will almost dissappear. Hopefully these WOTC game designers are brilliant enough to achieve "class equality" without sacrificing "the party" too much.

This makes no sense. Clearly defined roles will strengthen the party, because every class will not only have a clear job but be capable of doing that job better than the other classes. The problem at the moment is that some classes have no role at all (the monk) or are laughably weak (bard and ranger) or become useless from mid-level onwards (everyone except the sorcerer, wizard, cleric and druid).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As to why I fear I am not going to be happy with 4E.

Finger number two: Prep time. I still don't believe the DM work load is going to be substantially reduced enough to make me happy to DM 4E. If I still need to buy PC generators and other "DM tools" to significantly reduce Prep time, I'll still be staying away from 4E as a DM.

I don't see why you would need to buy those things for 4e.

Not that we have much evidence to go on, but there is some, mostly from SAGA. Skills can be assigned much more easily, and for me (I like dealing with NPC skills) that's a big deal. If magic item loads are reduced, that will also make NPCs easier to design.

 

[Doug McCrae]

In fact, I'd offer that if the new edition didn't include modern fantasy influences that it'd be less true to the original game.

Genius.

Yeah, 1970s D&D was a pop culture melange of contemporary influences - Hammer horror films, swamp monster comic books, David Carradine's Kung Fu, Space: 1999. And Lord of the Rings, which had become popular relatively recently.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Huh...

I can see the argument for number three. I disagree, but depending on what defines D&D to you, at least it's understandable.

Number two simply isn't an issue yet. We're not going to know how much prep the game requires until it's out (or at least until we have a lot more info than we have now). It makes no sense, to me, either to disdain 4E because it's too complex, or welcome it because it's simpler, as of yet.

But complaint number one makes no sense to me at all. How does making sure all the classes are equal equate to making them identical? Especially since much of the new design focuses on defining the standard party roles and making sure that each class is effective at filling one of them, it seems to me that (if anything) the emphasis on niche protection and party cooperation is at least as strong as past editions, if not stronger.

 

[Zamkaizer]

It's nice that you've resigned yourself to loathing 4th Ed. months before substantial information is even set to come out. Disliking the little information - a series of ambiguous articles on design philosophy, pieces of subjective concept and promotional art, and anecdotes about malleable fluff - we've seen thus far is one thing. Disliking the work that that information composes the tiniest fraction of is another thing altogether.

 

[DaveMage]

It's nice that you've resigned yourself to loathing 4th Ed. months before substantial information is even set to come out. Disliking the little information - a series of ambiguous articles on design philosophy, pieces of subjective concept and promotional art, and anecdotes about malleable fluff - we've seen thus far is one thing. Disliking the work that that information composes the tiniest fraction of is another thing altogether.

It's just conversation.

All we know is what we know.

Maybe WotC reads this and threads like it to tailor their future announcements to allay fears that people may have.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

So in 4E I am concerned their attempts to "equalize the classes" will go so far that the importance of the group will almost dissappear. Hopefully these WOTC game designers are brilliant enough to achieve "class equality" without sacrificing "the party" too much.

It's actually the exact opposite. The more you emphasize the importance of roles the more the focus is on the party and less on the individual.

The entire idea behind roles is to make sure everyone is good at something...and not the same something so everyone has to rely on each other in order to succeed.

In 3.5e it is possible to make up an entire party of characters who are good at everything. 4 of their members out of 5 could drop dead and they'd still be capable of dealing damage, controlling the enemies, taking damage, healing themselves, etc.

In 4e, each member of the party will become MORE important to the whole.

Finger number two: Prep time. I still don't believe the DM work load is going to be substantially reduced enough to make me happy to DM 4E. If I still need to buy PC generators and other "DM tools" to significantly reduce Prep time, I'll still be staying away from 4E as a DM.

Doesn't sound like you will need to. From everything I've seen preparation will be reduced. If monsters abilities are made less complicated, easy to adjudicate and there aren't 10 abilities per creature, then I can just open to the proper page and run the monster even if I wasn't ready for an encounter with that creature. I can do that in 3rd ed, but if I haven't ran that creature before or if it's been a while I may need to take a couple of minutes break from the game to reread all their powers and make sure I have it right.

Finger number 3, and my biggest over all problem. 4E is sounding less and less like what D&D fantasy is to me. The way it is sounding to me I already have 4E. Its called "Exalted" or "Big Eyes Small Mouth". So if 4E is indeed moving towards the flavor and feel of these types of fantasy then it is definitely moving beyond me. I play D&D for a specific flavor with specific "tropes"; I think is how it is referred to.

This is a hard one without knowing exactly what you consider D&D. Everyone has a different opinion of that. Mine is simple: It is a game set in a pseudo-medieval fantasy world with various races where people who cast arcane and divine spells exist, and the players are larger than life characters who work together to defeat strange monsters.

In this aspect I don't see 4e being any less D&D than any of the previous editions. I see that other systems (like Hero or GURPS or BESM) could probably be used to play what I think of as D&D, but I don't like their mechanics, since most of them are designed to better suit other playstyles than the D&D one.

When I look at D&D in terms of mechanics, I hope that it encourages and helps facilitate the above definition of D&D. If it encourages teamwork over individual play, it's a good mechanic. If it encourages PCs to seek out and kill monsters, it's a good mechanic. If it increases the amount of fun the players have WHILE killing monsters, it's good. If it enables me to run in the above style smoothly and quickly, it's good.