D&D 5E I think I've cracked a fair way to buff sorcerers

I like the OP's idea. I'd probably cost each spell at the cost of buying a spell slot, rather than the return from selling a spell slot, and I would also let the spell last all day (or at least til the next short rest). But overall it seems like a good way to trade sorcery points for spell flexibility, particularly when metamagic is mostly useless to the character (as it often is for mine).

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Personally, I'd prefer sorcerer's "thing" to be true metamagic, rather than the junkpile that they were given. That is, be able to fully craft spells on the fly, à la Mage: The Ascension, or Ars Magica. Keep it restricted to one or two narrowly focused elements or concepts, and leave it to the player to figure out creative ways to use that power.

For example: You can use cold magic. Don't worry about the crap options in the D&D spell list, just figure out how you'd use ice to accomplish your goals. Whether that's a slick patch of ice, an icicle through the heart, freezing the enemy to the floor, condensing water in the air to create fog, creating a bridge of ice over a chasm, or whatever else — be creative with what your theme can actually do. On the flip side, you're never casting Fireball, or Enhance Ability, or Comprehend Languages, or Haste, or Wish, or Charm Person, or dozens of other spells. That's just outside your capacity. That is what I really expect out of a sorcerer.

However D&D just isn't designed or balanced to be able to handle that. I tried looking at what would be necessary to fit the idea in with D&D's mechanics, and it's just nightmarish. There's not really even any decent math for properly balanced spells, never mind casting stuff on the fly. Maybe, at best, just describe the spell, and have the GM say, "OK. Gimme X sorcery points for that. Here's what happens..." You're entirely dependent on the GM's whims, and the GM has to be able to judge things on the fly (and probably needs experience in open magic game systems), but that's about as close as you're likely to get. ... Unless you literally curate and reskin an exact list of spells that you're allowed to use with any given origin, which might almost be workable, maybe.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
For example: You can use cold magic. Don't worry about the crap options in the D&D spell list, just figure out how you'd use ice to accomplish your goals. ...On the flip side, you're never casting ... or Wish, or Charm Person, or dozens of other spells. That's just outside your capacity. That is what I really expect out of a sorcerer.
No wish? But he said it would "be a cold day when..." and I can make it a cold day! And, can't a I Charm the fair maiden with how Cool I am?

Seriously, though, it's a nice idea, not one that D&D lends itself to in the least, but a nice idea.
Cool, even.

However D&D just isn't designed or balanced to be able to handle that. I tried looking at what would be necessary to fit the idea in with D&D's mechanics, and it's just nightmarish. There's not really even any decent math for properly balanced spells, never mind casting stuff on the fly...
For elemental sorcerers you could probably have a fairly straightforward set-up. Associate die type, save stat, a couple conditions, &c with each element. The game already has a rough guide of damage to spell level. Have another rough guide of relative sized for each of the possible AEs, something similar for cantrips, and off you go...

Unless you literally curate and reskin an exact list of spells that you're allowed to use with any given origin, which might almost be workable, maybe.
Now that I think of that, I did that for Clerics of specific deities way back in 1e. It's workable, especially since you really only must do it when a player chooses one, and only stay ahead of his current level.
 

Medio

First Post
Whoa there! The reason you feel dissatisfied with the class (assuming dissatisfaction is the reason for suggesting buffs) is because you're trying to make it into something it isn't.

The Sorcerer isn't the "mage" archetype. The Sorcerer is a Blaster.

The Sorcerer has EXCELLENT novaing potential. Use your Sorcery points to cast both a spell and a cantrip each round.

Then when you run out of Sorcery points, convert your low-level spell slots into more Sorcery points, and repeat.

You will find that a Sorcerer played like a ranged blaster performs as an excellent ranged warrior!

If you want flexibility and "I have a spell for that", play a Wizard.

But the sorcerer can almost double the Wizard's raw DPS! No buffing necessary.
Elaborate that. The way a Sorcerer can almost double the Wizard DPS (which btw is not top tier on DPS).

Sorcerer can twin some spells that deal damage, but maybe once per battle due its cost and the best damage spells can´t be twinned. That´s not going to double the Wizard DPS.

Sorcerer can Quicken and use some cantrip damage added. Fine, but that doesn´t double the Wizard DPS and you will do it twice, three times on a fight.

Sorcerer can Empower some spells and do more damage. An Evoker Wizard will deal more extra damage at the end of the day without having to waste resources on extra damage and it will still have plenty more versatility than the Sorcerer. So not close again on doubling the Wizard DPS.

So finally we ended up that on a combat you will probably deal more damage than a wizard, and probably less than a good melee or archer who are more consistant on damage while having way better defences than you. And that´s all, you have depleted all your resources and on the next battle your DPS will be ridiculous as the class doesn´t have endurance. And you won´t be able to recover your spells on short rests like the Wizard does, by the way. You will only outdamage the Wizard is there is just one encounter in the day.

Don´t let the flashy numbers trick you. Sorcerer is a "fair" ranged warrior, far from excellent, with bad AC and hit points. A ranger or warrior will outdamage it at the end of the day for sure and probably will be able to stand way more than the Sorcerer. So we have a cannon ball which really isn´t that good cannon...
 


NotAYakk

Legend
To me, sorcerers limited list is part of the mythos. They aren't generic arcane casters; they have a set of magical talents.

I'd rather gice them:
1. A chance to not use a spell slot when they cast a sorcerer spell,
2. Strip flexible casting,
3. Make metamagic be short rest based.

1 amd 2 are intended to balance each other out.

3 is intended to make metamagic a nearly all the time thing.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I think if you build a subclass around this as subclass feature it is ok.

The problem is Sorcerers are already one of the most powerful classes, not as powerful as Wizard but not far behind and being based on Charisma gives them a ton of multiclass options. Add in very powerful subclass features (for the good subclasses) and this will make the class OP. Not as OP as an optimized Wizard, but not far behind and further ahead of most classes than they already are.

Weave Bender Sorcerer Subclass - You are intricately tied to the Weave and it is part of your being allowing you to tap magic in ways others can't

Level 1.
Mystic Magic Knowlege - Your ties to the weave give you paranormal insight into all things magical, you gain proficiency in the Arcana skill and proficiency in Intelligence Saves against magical effects and spells.

Arcane tap - Your connection to the weave crosses the normal boundaries enabling you to access spells easier than others. You gain one cantrip from any spell list, you can replace this cantrip with another cantrip after a long rest.

Level 6.
Channel Unkown Magic - You can cast any sorcerer spell which are a high enough level to cast even if it is not a known spell. To cast it you must use sorcery points equal to the spell level and expend a spell slot equal to its level (cantrips cost 1 sorcery point and 1 1st level spell slot). You can not use metamagic on spells cast this way and you can not cast a spell of level 6 or higher using this ability.

Level 14:
Improved Channel Unknown Magic - Your ability to cast spells you don't know now extends to all spells of all classes up to 5th level. If the spell is not on the Sorcerer spell list you must make an Arcana check equal to the spells level in addition to expending the spell slot and the sorcery points

Level 18:
Weave Transform - As a bonus action you attach yourself to the weave for 1 minute. You have advantage on all saves against magical effects, you have immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition and resistance to non-magical piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage. While under this effect you can use a bonus action every turn to teleport up to 60 feet.
 

Pauln6

Hero
I like the OP's idea. I'd probably cost each spell at the cost of buying a spell slot, rather than the return from selling a spell slot, and I would also let the spell last all day (or at least til the next short rest). But overall it seems like a good way to trade sorcery points for spell flexibility, particularly when metamagic is mostly useless to the character (as it often is for mine).

/--------/

Personally, I'd prefer sorcerer's "thing" to be true metamagic, rather than the junkpile that they were given. That is, be able to fully craft spells on the fly, à la Mage: The Ascension, or Ars Magica. Keep it restricted to one or two narrowly focused elements or concepts, and leave it to the player to figure out creative ways to use that power.

For example: You can use cold magic. Don't worry about the crap options in the D&D spell list, just figure out how you'd use ice to accomplish your goals. Whether that's a slick patch of ice, an icicle through the heart, freezing the enemy to the floor, condensing water in the air to create fog, creating a bridge of ice over a chasm, or whatever else — be creative with what your theme can actually do. On the flip side, you're never casting Fireball, or Enhance Ability, or Comprehend Languages, or Haste, or Wish, or Charm Person, or dozens of other spells. That's just outside your capacity. That is what I really expect out of a sorcerer.

However D&D just isn't designed or balanced to be able to handle that. I tried looking at what would be necessary to fit the idea in with D&D's mechanics, and it's just nightmarish. There's not really even any decent math for properly balanced spells, never mind casting stuff on the fly. Maybe, at best, just describe the spell, and have the GM say, "OK. Gimme X sorcery points for that. Here's what happens..." You're entirely dependent on the GM's whims, and the GM has to be able to judge things on the fly (and probably needs experience in open magic game systems), but that's about as close as you're likely to get. ... Unless you literally curate and reskin an exact list of spells that you're allowed to use with any given origin, which might almost be workable, maybe.
I am still struggling to implement my shadow mage. I miss Shadow Conjuration. I have seen fan class features that added a small amount of damage to illusions to represent the inclusion of shadow stuff.
 

Stalker0

Legend
When thinking about the balance of the idea, don't think about a typical adventuring day. On those days, your sorcery points are pretty limited, they are a precious resource.

Instead, think about a more downtime scenario. The sorceror has full access to their sorcery points, doesn't really need metamagic, and instead just needs X spell to handle X thing, then pretty much gets a long rest right afterwards whenever it needs it.

So now think about if there are any abuses with having access to every sorceror spell in the game. If you think it looks good, you've nailed it.
 

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