D&D 5E I think I've cracked a fair way to buff sorcerers

[CapnZapp]

Agreed.

The "fixes" offered in this thread seem to be a case of wanting it all without giving anything up.

Just to further bring home the point:

If you look at a Sorcerer as an Archer (a fighter-y or ranger-y type of character) the you'll see clearly how powerful the Sorcerer already is.

Instead of shooting arrows/bolts, it shoots fire. And then it can also cast Fireball.

It is only when somebody looks at you thinking you can provide a "spell for that", and gets disappointed, that anyone can think the Sorcerer is underpowered. It's not, because that's a mistake.

The Sorcerer might be wonky or inflexible, yes, but not underpowered.

Any increase in power might help those of you who tries to play the Sorcerer like a Wizard. But it would make the class outright broken for the minmaxer who plays the Sorcerer as... a Sorcerer! (A fire draconic Sorcerer, to be precise.)

Tl;dr: Don't give the class any boosts. Instead play another class when you don't want to play a Blaster.

At the very least remove Quicken metamagic from the class variant y'all seem intent to create.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I like the idea myself because the sorcerer spell list is not good. It’s pretty bland and boring. If it were more than just blast stuff sorcerers might not be viewed as artillery only.

It is more than just blast stuff. While generally (but not exclusively) of the offensive sort, the Sorcerer spell list is full of spells that are great in specific situations, but that you might not generally choose as your all-purpose spells. Just to pick a level (3) there's:

Clairvoyance
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Gaseous Form
Protection from Energy
Tidal Wave
Tongues
Water Breathing
Water Walk

So just like that, every level 5+ sorcerer gets instant access to all these spells, whenever they happen to need them?

No way.

At the very least require a Charisma check (vs. DC of 10 + spell level) to see if they can improvise the spell in the moment. On a failure they still spend the sorcery points.

 

[clearstream]

It is more than just blast stuff. While generally (but not exclusively) of the offensive sort, the Sorcerer spell list is full of spells that are great in specific situations, but that you might not generally choose as your all-purpose spells. Just to pick a level (3) there's:

Clairvoyance
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Gaseous Form
Protection from Energy
Tidal Wave
Tongues
Water Breathing
Water Walk

So just like that, every level 5+ sorcerer gets instant access to all these spells, whenever they happen to need them?

No way.

At the very least require a Charisma check (vs. DC of 10 + spell level) to see if they can improvise the spell in the moment. On a failure they still spend the sorcery points.

The cost seems fairly balancing. Imagine we're playing at the typically most relevant levels - 4-11 - to be able to cast Dispel Magic costs a decent chunk of your daily SP.

OTOH I agree with those who might feel that being more versatile would not be the buff they were looking for.

 

[Esker]

Wow! That would be cool but also very powerful. If we tried it, and that is a big IF, it would have to be very expensive, like 1 sorcery point per spell level of higher level spell you are concentrating on. In essence, not only would casting that spell cost you a spell slot, but also en equal number of sorcery points.

I was thinking about this too, and about how I would write the ability to keep it from being too powerful (since as it stands, concentration is probably the biggest bottleneck that keeps spellcasters' power in check (particularly once they have enough slots to be casting spells a lot of the time).

I'm thinking something like: "When you are concentrating on a spell and you cast a spell that also requires concentration, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the combined level of the two spells to maintain concentration on both spells simultaneously (cantrips are considered level 0 for the purpose of this feature). You may not use this feature if you are already concentrating on more than one spell, and the combined level of the spells cannot exceed your proficiency bonus. If an effect such as taking damage causes you to make a concentration save, you make separate saves for each spell."

So, basically it enables you to layer lower level spells, but because of the proficiency bonus limiter it can never apply to spells above 5th level (I guess unless you want to layer a concentration cantrip on top of a 6th level spell at 17th+ level, which, more power to you), and can never apply to the highest level spell at your level, unless one of the spells is a cantrip. It's limited to 1st level spells until you get 3rd level spells, to 1st and 2nd level spells until you get 5th level spells, to 1st-3rd level spells until you get 7th level spells, and then finally at 17th level when you have 9th level spells you can layer a 5th level and a 1st level.

 

[EpicureanDM]

The simple fixes I've used in my game to boost sorcerers are as follows:

• They are a CON class, not a CHA class. Power comes from your blood, not your personality.
• Sorcerers can use a free hand as a material component. They still need to use verbal and somatic if the spell calls for it.
• Biggest one: Use the spell point system in the DMG and combine that with their sorcerer points into one big pool that can be used to power spells and metamagic. They have a big pool of points just sloshing around. Maximum flexibility.
• Sorcerers know all metamagic options but can only attune to a certain amount per day based on their level. They get three metamagic slots at 3rd level (and three more at 7th and 10th). They can mediate for two hours during a long rest to swap out different metamagic.
• Each subclass gets a small bonus list of spells known based on the subclass' flavor.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I was thinking about this too, and about how I would write the ability to keep it from being too powerful (since as it stands, concentration is probably the biggest bottleneck that keeps spellcasters' power in check (particularly once they have enough slots to be casting spells a lot of the time).

I'm thinking something like: "When you are concentrating on a spell and you cast a spell that also requires concentration, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the combined level of the two spells to maintain concentration on both spells simultaneously (cantrips are considered level 0 for the purpose of this feature). You may not use this feature if you are already concentrating on more than one spell, and the combined level of the spells cannot exceed your proficiency bonus. If an effect such as taking damage causes you to make a concentration save, you make separate saves for each spell."

So, basically it enables you to layer lower level spells, but because of the proficiency bonus limiter it can never apply to spells above 5th level (I guess unless you want to layer a concentration cantrip on top of a 6th level spell at 17th+ level, which, more power to you), and can never apply to the highest level spell at your level, unless one of the spells is a cantrip. It's limited to 1st level spells until you get 3rd level spells, to 1st and 2nd level spells until you get 5th level spells, to 1st-3rd level spells until you get 7th level spells, and then finally at 17th level when you have 9th level spells you can layer a 5th level and a 1st level.

You know, I thought about this some today at work and the more I thought about it, the more I like this as a Warlock feature, not Sorcerer. Personally, I feel more like Warlocks are lacking in "umph" than the Sorcerer.

The simple fixes I've used in my game to boost sorcerers are as follows:

• They are a CON class, not a CHA class. Power comes from your blood, not your personality.
• Sorcerers can use a free hand as a material component. They still need to use verbal and somatic if the spell calls for it.
• Biggest one: Use the spell point system in the DMG and combine that with their sorcerer points into one big pool that can be used to power spells and metamagic. They have a big pool of points just sloshing around. Maximum flexibility.
• Sorcerers know all metamagic options but can only attune to a certain amount per day based on their level. They get three metamagic slots at 3rd level (and three more at 7th and 10th). They can mediate for two hours during a long rest to swap out different metamagic.
• Each subclass gets a small bonus list of spells known based on the subclass' flavor.

Lots of good stuff! We have many of the same or similar:

• We switched over to CON as well as their spellcasing modifier, and switched to CON/INT for saves.
• We already use a spell-point system but also allow free swapping of spell-points and sorcery points, up to 5, as a bonus action.
• We also allow them to swap metamagics, but only when they level up, and added a capstone feature: Metamagic Mastery, which grants them all metamagics.

 

[CapnZapp]

The simple fixes I've used in my game to boost sorcerers are as follows:

• They are a CON class, not a CHA class. Power comes from your blood, not your personality.
• Sorcerers can use a free hand as a material component. They still need to use verbal and somatic if the spell calls for it.
• Biggest one: Use the spell point system in the DMG and combine that with their sorcerer points into one big pool that can be used to power spells and metamagic. They have a big pool of points just sloshing around. Maximum flexibility.
• Sorcerers know all metamagic options but can only attune to a certain amount per day based on their level. They get three metamagic slots at 3rd level (and three more at 7th and 10th). They can mediate for two hours during a long rest to swap out different metamagic.
• Each subclass gets a small bonus list of spells known based on the subclass' flavor.

1) Switching from Cha to Con is a dream for the minmaxer who doesn't care about talking to people. It just frees you to focus on combat-related stats. In other words: you just gave the Sorcerer more hit points.
2) Fair enough - no impact on balance
3) Spell points is a massive upgrade, since flexibility = power. The Sorcerer is already massively powerful because she can translate all those "useless" low level spell slots into Quicken Metamagic. There is no need to make this process even simpler and cheaper.
4) Fair enough - since minmaxers already pick the best options, allowing you to switch to the criminally underused ones is a nice touch
5) See below

Look, I totally get it. The Sorcerer class design simply isn't very well executed. About the only way to create a powerful character, yet one consistent with character background and "color" is to create a red draconic sorcerer (fire spells). Everything else is... just a downgrade without getting anything in return.

The Sorcerer that casts fireball and fire bolt each significant combat round is one of the most powerful character builds of the game.

Please please please everyone: make more of an effort in giving OTHER builds bonuses WITHOUT making one of the most powerful character builds of the game even more overpowered than it already is! Thank you.

 

[FrogReaver]

1) Switching from Cha to Con is a dream for the minmaxer who doesn't care about talking to people. It just frees you to focus on combat-related stats. In other words: you just gave the Sorcerer more hit points.
2) Fair enough - no impact on balance
3) Spell points is a massive upgrade, since flexibility = power. The Sorcerer is already massively powerful because she can translate all those "useless" low level spell slots into Quicken Metamagic. There is no need to make this process even simpler and cheaper.
4) Fair enough - since minmaxers already pick the best options, allowing you to switch to the criminally underused ones is a nice touch
5) See below

Look, I totally get it. The Sorcerer class design simply isn't very well executed. About the only way to create a powerful character, yet one consistent with character background and "color" is to create a red draconic sorcerer (fire spells). Everything else is... just a downgrade without getting anything in return.

The Sorcerer that casts fireball and fire bolt each significant combat round is one of the most powerful character builds of the game.

Please please please everyone: make more of an effort in giving OTHER builds bonuses WITHOUT making one of the most powerful character builds of the game even more overpowered than it already is! Thank you.

You won’t keep quicken anything up for long. You can keep twin firebolt up most of the day.

 

[CapnZapp]

You won’t keep quicken anything up for long. You can keep twin firebolt up most of the day.

Sure.

Point remains, though.

And "not for long" is surprisingly often all the time you need. At high levels, Sorcerers have frighteningly large amounts of Sorcery Points if you include low-level spell slots.

 

[EpicureanDM]

Lots of good stuff! We have many of the same or similar:

• We switched over to CON as well as their spellcasing modifier, and switched to CON/INT for saves.
• We already use a spell-point system but also allow free swapping of spell-points and sorcery points, up to 5, as a bonus action.
• We also allow them to swap metamagics, but only when they level up, and added a capstone feature: Metamagic Mastery, which grants them all metamagics.

I like the cut of your jib, sailor.