D&D 5E I think I've cracked a fair way to buff sorcerers

[FrogReaver]

I've been waiting for somebody like you to come along

1. If nobody hesitates that's fine, but for those that ponder they will always ponder and the Sorcerer list isn't as expansive as the Wizard list there are fewer spells that are for non-combat scenarios but there are some, also any spell that has a name in the title a Sorcerer cannot have. Not only that there are some spells on the sorcerer spell list, no player would realistically pick like Feather Fall for instance but yet it's on the list

Wizard's know 14 spells at level 5 and can only have 9 prepared. That is - during any given combat a level 5 wizard has 9 spells to consider between.

With your ability the level 5 sorcerer is going to have to consider 60+ spells in any given combat.

If you can't see how that has the potential to drastically slow down play - then your game and playstyle and assumptions are so different than mine that I cannot help you.

2 If a sorcerer ends up spending all their sorcerery points of metamagic that's fine, but it's likely that you'll end up with 1/3rd of the maximum pool. And there will be times when they'll end up end up being helpless even when you have spell slots and sorcerery points to spare.

I can't make heads or tails of this comment. Sorcerers with spells left and sorcery points left to be able to cast any of the spells on their list are helpless???? Is that what you are saying?

It also encourages players to be more creative with their characters they might choose a spell that's not generically useful but works great with certain metamagic options: For example subtle spell would be excellent if combined with charm person. Charm person would rarely be picked otherwise.

I already prefer subtle spell as one of my metamagic options with a my typical sorcerers. I already consider picking charm person.

By having the fallback option of thinking "well I can always use sorcery points to cast fireball if I really need to, Why don't I pick something else at 5th level"

Or what's most likely to happen - I'll still take the normal good spells and the situational ones I will use via this new ability.

Sort of like the reverse of how when a high level player who picks Wish for their character ends up never using it since they have a 1/3 chance of losing it forever.

That's not how wish works in this edition.

 

[Mistwell]

Sort of like the reverse of how when a high level player who picks Wish for their character ends up never using it since they have a 1/3 chance of losing it forever.

 

[FrogReaver]

To expand on that: I see two problems with the sorcerer class that have nothing to do with the number of spells they know. One is that there are only three or four metamagic options that ever get picked. The second is that they have so few SP, particularly at low levels, that they have to ration their metamagic too carefully for it to feel like a major boon.

Fully agree. And metamagic would be an excellent mechanic to solve the too few spells issue.

So if we want to power up the sorcerer, it seems to me we should start there: (1) what can we do to bring the other metamagic options up to par with the ones everyone picks, and (2) how can we increase the frequency with which sorcerers can use metamagic. And I would add (3): can we create new metamagic options that help the sorcerer feel like they get more versatility out of the spells they do know?

Yep. Personally I categorize spells into at least the following categories:

1. Direct Damage
2. Defensive
3. Social
4. Exploration
5. Control
6. Buffing
7. Recovery

By level 4 a wizard can basically have at least one spell for each category and rituals to help round out the rest of his utility. A sorcerer requires level 6 to reach that point and has no rituals to help round out the categories of things he can do.

The new UA variant Elemental Spell is a good answer to (3) for blaster sorcerers, but non-blasters should get something too. Maybe something like: "Spend X SP when you cast a spell to have that casting ignore a creature's immunity to one of the following conditions: charmed, frightened, restrained."

I like that

Lots of people have suggested things like making SP refresh on a short rest as a fix for (2), but i think this goes too far if we're leaving the number of points alone, and steps on the Warlock a bit, particularly when combined with Font of Magic. But maybe changing the formula for determining the size of your SP pool would work.

As long as points can be changed back into spell slots I don't see a good mechanical way to add more sorcery points.

As for (1): Extended spell is the easiest to fix; it should just bump up the duration to the next normal duration (1m --> 10m; 10m --> 1h; 1h --> 8h; 8h --> 24h).

Yep. I would add an option for an additional sorcery point expenditure to double the new duration as well.

Distant spell could package together a couple of different options: changing touch to 30' can be good, doubling the range is highly situational, but is fine as part of a metamagic that also does other things, but it needs something else. Maybe fold in Seeking Spell from the UA variants.

Distant spell should also allow cover and possibly line of sight restriction to be ignored.

As for Careful spell, it needs a way to actually function as a way to avoid friendly fire on damage spells. But rather than just copying Sculpt Spells, how about an option that lets you either expand or reduce the radius of an AoE by 5' per SP? It'd be 10' for spells whose areas are specified in terms of a diameter, cube, or cone.

Solid change!

Finally, I don't see any reason why Distant, Extended, Careful and Subtle shouldn't be able to stack with other metamagics on a single casting.

The current versions no - but the new versions I'm not sure about.

Seems like you should also be able to swap out one metamagic option on a level-up; and maybe grant an extra metamagic pick at 6th or so.

agreed

 

[Esker]

As long as points can be changed back into spell slots I don't see a good mechanical way to add more sorcery points.

I am thinking about something along the lines of doing away with (or at least greatly limiting) the free sorcery points you get but increasing the number of points you get when you converting a spell slot. Like, maybe your "free" pool is only equal to your CHA mod plus half your proficiency or something, but when you convert a spell slot, you get the same amount of SP that it costs to create that slot.

That would mean that at 3rd level, a typical sorcerer who converts all their 1st level slots would get 12 SP total for the day, instead of the 7 they get now. An 11th level sorcerer with 20 CHA who converts their 1st-3rd level slots would get 5+2+4*2+3*3+3*5=39 SP to play with, vs the 11+4*1+3*2+3*3=30 SP they get now. At 19th level, if you converted all 1st-4th level slots, you'd have 8+8+9+15+18=58 SP, vs the 19+4+6+9+12=50 SP they get now. The benefit is front-loaded, since the free pool scales more slowly, which is the goal, but you still come out ahead at high levels as long as you are converting enough low level slots. But it seems like you should be incentivized to burn slots to power your metamagic.

I think you would also have to stipulate that only slots gained from the Spellcasting feature can be used to create SP, otherwise you're making Sorlock even more of a draw than it is now (I tend to think you should only be able to use metamagic with Sorcerer spells too, but I recognize that that completely breaks a lot of eldritch blast builds).

Distant spell should also allow cover and possibly line of sight restriction to be ignored.

Yeah, ignoring cover is what Seeking spell does. Ignoring line of sight too is interesting... It would mean that you could target invisible creatures or creatures in magical darkness, etc. Could work, but might need to cost more than 1SP to use that option?

 

[snickersnax]

My current iteration of sorcerer house rule is this: Sorcerers get free Subtle Spell on all sorcerer spells with no spell point cost. Also sorcerers uses spell point variant to better model their "deep well of magic"

This helps to differentiate sorcerer who is casting spells innately and wizard who is casting using memorized words, tones, gestures and symbols.

And it also helps with one of the sorerer's biggest complaints which is limited metamagic options.

 

[clearstream]

As long as points can be changed back into spell slots I don't see a good mechanical way to add more sorcery points.

I drafted but did not play a mechanic that was roughly - the first time you burn a slot for SP between rests, you get extra SP.

 

[jasper]

Roids, daily work outs, and a great diet?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Whoa there! The reason you feel dissatisfied with the class (assuming dissatisfaction is the reason for suggesting buffs) is because you're trying to make it into something it isn't.

The Sorcerer isn't the "mage" archetype. The Sorcerer is a Blaster.

The Sorcerer has EXCELLENT novaing potential. Use your Sorcery points to cast both a spell and a cantrip each round.

Then when you run out of Sorcery points, convert your low-level spell slots into more Sorcery points, and repeat.

You will find that a Sorcerer played like a ranged blaster performs as an excellent ranged warrior!

If you want flexibility and "I have a spell for that", play a Wizard.

But the sorcerer can almost double the Wizard's raw DPS! No buffing necessary.

Agreed.

The "fixes" offered in this thread seem to be a case of wanting it all without giving anything up.

While true that the Sorcerer list isn't as long as the Wizard list, if the Sorcerer gets to have access, on a daily basis, to that entire list, it actually makes him/her more versatile than the poor Wizard. He/she gets to choose between spending sorcery points on:

• More slots/day than the Wizard.
• More DPR than the Wizard.
• More spell selection than the Wizard.

And while true that you can't optimize all three of those things at once (within a long rest, anyway), the flexibility is there to choose any of those as needed.

Take Ritual Caster feat and you've got it all.

So, no. Just no.

 

[Wiseblood]

Agreed.

The "fixes" offered in this thread seem to be a case of wanting it all without giving anything up.

While true that the Sorcerer list isn't as long as the Wizard list, if the Sorcerer gets to have access, on a daily basis, to that entire list, it actually makes him/her more versatile than the poor Wizard. He/she gets to choose between spending sorcery points on:

• More slots/day than the Wizard.
• More DPR than the Wizard.
• More spell selection than the Wizard.

And while true that you can't optimize all three of those things at once (within a long rest, anyway), the flexibility is there to choose any of those as needed.

Take Ritual Caster feat and you've got it all.

So, no. Just no.

I like the idea myself because the sorcerer spell list is not good. It’s pretty bland and boring. If it were more than just blast stuff sorcerers might not be viewed as artillery only.

In addition to a revised spell list perhaps sorcerers should be allowed to use sorcery points to maintain multiple concentration spells mwahahaha!

 

[DND_Reborn]

In addition to a revised spell list perhaps sorcerers should be allowed to use sorcery points to maintain multiple concentration spells mwahahaha!

Wow! That would be cool but also very powerful. If we tried it, and that is a big IF, it would have to be very expensive, like 1 sorcery point per spell level of higher level spell you are concentrating on. In essence, not only would casting that spell cost you a spell slot, but also en equal number of sorcery points.