I think the D&D experience system has a lot to do with my players being murder hobos.

Corpsetaker

First Post
A games system can influence this as well. A game's mechanics that is geared more toward combat, 3rd,4th, and 5th edition D&D, then people feel like they are missing out when they don't get to use their "kewl" combat abilities.
 

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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
A games system can influence this as well. A game's mechanics that is geared more toward combat, 3rd,4th, and 5th edition D&D, then people feel like they are missing out when they don't get to use their "kewl" combat abilities.
This line of reasoning always bothers me. The majority of RPGs on the market by a significant margin dedicate more word-count and special rules to combat than to non-combat - not because the game is meant to focus on combat more than other aspects, but because combat is the portion of the game in which more detail is needed to reach an equitable and enjoyable experience for the folks playing the game.

Even Call of Cthulhu, a game in which being in combat usually means you've seriously screwed up, fits this false evidence that it is "geared more toward combat."
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Out of interest, what does a traditional XP system add to the game? What do you feel would be lost by switching to a milestone system?

The traditional XP system is better for sandbox type games that do not play on rails or "paths". The Milestone system is better when PCs have to be at a certain level at a certain time.
 

jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
DnD doesn't have any rules for granting xp, other than murdering everything in sight
That's overstating it a bit. It does talk about granting XP for things other than combat; it just doesn't have a table of guidelines to suggest how much XP various non-combat options should be worth. Which, I agree, would be useful, but it's not fair to say that there's no other way to get XP per RAW.
 

NotActuallyTim

First Post
Even Call of Cthulhu, a game in which being in combat usually means you've seriously screwed up, fits this false evidence that it is "geared more toward combat."

CoC is geared quite a bit towards combat. Just not in the favor of Investigators, but rather in favor of killing them in horrible ways.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
CoC is geared quite a bit towards combat. Just not in the favor of Investigators, but rather in favor of killing them in horrible ways.
An insect being splattered on the grill of an automobile does not fit any definition of the word "combat" with which I am familiar.

Thinks are marginally more combat-oriented than that in Call of Cthulhu, since you might be lucky enough to face some horror which while stronger than you, tougher than you, and more skilled at violence than you, at least isn't entirely uninjured by whatever weaponry you have managed to bring to bear. So we agree on the points, despite our disagreements on the specific details.
 

Corpsetaker

First Post
This line of reasoning always bothers me. The majority of RPGs on the market by a significant margin dedicate more word-count and special rules to combat than to non-combat - not because the game is meant to focus on combat more than other aspects, but because combat is the portion of the game in which more detail is needed to reach an equitable and enjoyable experience for the folks playing the game. Even Call of Cthulhu, a game in which being in combat usually means you've seriously screwed up, fits this false evidence that it is "geared more toward combat."
It may bother you but it's true. The more bells and whistles you add to something the more people want to use them. 5th edition was supposed to be divided into 3 pillars and mostly what we get is the combat pillar. Now I'm not talking about the rules of combat, I'm talking about the classes. There is a big difference than the book needing to contain lots of rules of combat than the classes being loaded down with combat abilities. Having 9 different ways of swinging your sword and killing things makes players want more combat than having maybe one or two followed by three or four ways to do things out of combat.
 

Kusodareka

First Post
I wonder if it is the items/levelling that influences players more than the rules.
Every time they level up they get more combat abilities, and there are so many neat magic items that it pushes people to try and acquire them.

Whatever the reason, there has to be something about DnD that does it. I play differently than I do in other systems.

Not a criticism, I'm loving 5e now, just an observation.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
This line of reasoning always bothers me. The majority of RPGs on the market by a significant margin dedicate more word-count and special rules to combat than to non-combat - not because the game is meant to focus on combat more than other aspects, but because combat is the portion of the game in which more detail is needed to reach an equitable and enjoyable experience for the folks playing the game.

Even Call of Cthulhu, a game in which being in combat usually means you've seriously screwed up, fits this false evidence that it is "geared more toward combat."
D&D has always dropped into "bullet time" for combat. Where unlike the majority of actions that are solved by RP/inventiveness/creativity plus none/one/few die rolls, combat was very detailed. Makes sense given it's origin. This also makes it eat up a lot of wall clock time in a session (as opposed to in-game time). If this is going to be a major focus of time spent, it should have that much rules around it.

Even more importantly, all characters are designed to be able to contribute meaningfully to it. So everyone needs to take a turn at it, unlike the party face doing a good cop/bad cop or the ranger finding the pass over the mountain.

But that's self-perpetuating. It has a lot of rules, it takes time and focus, so it gets made more interesting with more rules. And because it's expected, new action RPGs perpetrate this.

If sneaking the whole party past a orc patrol, talking your way past the patrol, or killing the patrol all took the same amount of wall time, with the same mechanical neeeds (a few die rolls, whatever), and didn't require everyone to be able to participate equally in all scenes (like all characters now are expected in combat), it would be a different ballgame.

It wouldn't be D&D IMO, but that's okay, because there are plenty RP itches out there and the more variety the better you can find something that matches your table.
 

S'mon

Legend
I'm not so sure that that assumption is accurate. I would wager that a far greater percentage of homebrew-campaign-DMs run sandboxes than non-homebrew-campaign-DMs. Maybe even the majority. And, while it is certainly possible to scale the challenges in a sandbox to fit the party's level, I would bet that most don't, since that would take away one of the selling-points of a sandbox campaign.

Now, that doesn't mean that the milestone-leveling (or something similar) can't work for sandboxes; as long as the party sets its own goals, it works out at least as well as more traditional XP systems for sandbox-play.

In my sandbox Wilderlands game the PCs (level 11-13 currently) choose what challenges they'll face. They seek challemges they can beat - they tend not to go back to the newbie dungeon (few XP), but neither do they
go off to fight the God-Emperor (unbeatable) or even the Warbringer (likely unbeatable). They look for stuff that will achieve in-world goals, be challenging but beatable, and give decent XP - and
hopefully some treasure, too.

Once the PCs are 20th level I do plan to go to Milestones, only awarding Epic Boons for
actual major achievements.
 

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