I think we're done with 4E

[Lord Vangarel]

See, I'm inclined to go the other direction. I'd tend to make monsters have more abilities or ways to recharge them so that they remain a threat up until the moment they're dead.

Whilst making the monsters more interesting this would dramatically increase the power level and therefore the danger to the party. Also you'd have to come up with a lot more powers for each monster and space considerations in the MM would prevent this. I willingly do it for the very occasional special homebrew monster but you may as well not bother with the MM other than for seed ideas and one of the great things about 4E that this method would completely chuck out would be running monsters straight out of the book with less preparation.

 

[LostSoul]

Some elaboration is in order. In 4e, you're lucky to see a non-daily attack do 20 points of damage, even at paragon levels. OTOH, hit points often top 100, even at heroic levels. Add into that the rather high whiff factor in 4e, and you've got a recipe for grinding, not brisk three-round battles.

Okay, let me try and go through each round as well as I can remember:

Pre-combat: Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard head in from the north; Warlock and Warlord head in from the south.

Surprise Round: Elf Scout dumps boiling oil on Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard via murder holes; misses everyone except the Wizard, who takes (3d8+4 = ~21) damage.

Round 1: Wizard goes up on balcony, opens pit.
Elf Scout 1 opens door, stabs Wizard.
Elf Archer, Elf Scout 2, and goblin minion show up through another door. The Elf Archer might have dropped the Wizard, while the scout went after the warlord/warlock.
Cave Bear comes up and melees fighter (the only one he can reach).
Warlord blasts them all with a Fire Shroud, killing the minion and destroying the rickety balcony they are standing on. (Damage is 10 to all, 2 more to the elves, ongoing fire 5.)
Fighter Tide of Irons the Cave Bear back into the pit. (Damage is 21; the pit is 20' down.)
Rogue - ?? Hits the bear for 16 damage?
Warlock does something... might miss.

Round 2: The Wizard Thunderwaves the Elf Scout off the balcony. Damage is 17.
Elf Archer shoots Wizard, drops him.
Elf Scout 2 attacks the Warlord?
Elf Scout 1 attacks ??
Bear gets out of pit and attacks the warlord?
They all fail to save vs. Fire.

I can't remember what happened past this round, but the PCs are obviously able to deal enough damage to bring down monster HP quickly - all the elves had taken 17 damage after 1 round of PC attacks! I think only one Elf Scout survived to the next round.

The bear survived, not quite Bloodied yet, but it was on a chain and the PCs didn't want to fight it. That's when the goblins showed up.

edit: The bear didn't save against the fire, even with the save bonus, until late in the game. So it started off taking 10/20/31/40/56/60 damage, and then 65/70. I think I forgot to add the fire damage in one round and I am adding two rounds worth at that point. So in the first round the bear's taken 31 damage, in the next two it has taken a total of 70.

Plus all the elves are dead; their damage looks like this:
Scout 1: 17/22/29/dead
Scout 2: 10/12/17 - that damage is 10 from the fire shroud, 2 from falling, and 5 from ongoing 5 fire - 29/41 (obviously dead at that point)
Archer: 10/12/17 - that's fire damage, and I think it dies after that from a Sneak Attack.

The bear's damage: 82/87 - that's probably one more round - 97/101/113/118 - another round - 130/151/164/dead. It probably saved around the 118 mark and lasted about 2 rounds after that.

 

[timbannock]

Another tack to take on the 4E "hp grind" is that once the realization sets in, the monster(s) should realize this too, and begin trying to withdraw from combat. This has several benefits - its realistic, and it potentially changes the field of combat as the monster tries to leave.

This is one of those simple-but-people-don't-always-think-of-it solutions (and by "people", I mean "me"!). Good advice.

Also, I've either read or thought up (probably read) this one: anybody but the PCs that are Bloodied are also at -X to all of their Defense scores (-2 has always seemed to be the magic number). If you want the grit to hit the PCs, do the same for them, too.

Makes Bloodied more fun, and also more tactically sound for a good cue as to when to start laying on the Dailies and Encounter abilities that might miss a high Defense critter.

 

[Nebulous]

I think this is a key point. It is far too easy for players to see the powers as the only things they can do, and thus mentally restrict their own options. Unfortunately I find it difficult for them to play the game without having cards for the powers because of their nature and the way they are worded and used. Catch-22 at the moment!

Very very true. We have to have the cards to play, but it focuses all of combat to what it says on the cards. Which is bland pretty much. Fun in its own little world of course, the battleboard. It will take more practice and encouraging them to do different things to fully break out of this Catch 22.

An excellent way to do this is to encourage more ways to use Action Points. The "1 per encounter" will have to go bye-bye i think. Maybe multiple action points can be queued up for truly specatacular acts of heroism?

 

[tomBitonti]

End States

Would any of these help?

End State: Reached when you immanent demise becomes clear (usually at around 1/4 hit points).

Consequences:

Mindless/Fanatic: Nothing different happens. You are a mindless automaton (such as a golem or an undead), or are a fanatic and don't care.

Berzerk: You see your inevitable end and decide to go out in a blaze of glory. ... insert appropriate 4E mechanic here ...

Cower: You see your inevitable end and cower and simper, revealing the craven fool that you are. Alternatively, you rail at the gods for their unfairness and cry for mercy.

Stoic Focus: You see your inevitable end, and grimly hang on as best you can.

Shell Up: You give up almost all hope and adopt a totally defensive posture.

Negotiate: You continue to fight, but call out for terms of surrender.

Flee: You take any opportunity to flee, at hazard to yourself and to any companions.

Panic: You totally lose it and run mindlessly about the battlefield.

Turncoat: You switch sides and attack a companion, hoping that your opponents accept your sudden change of heart.

 

[LostSoul]

I'd guess about 8-12 rounds for a standard encounter with monsters at or about their level. It improves slightly if they are able and willing to focus fire on monsters to reduce the odds more quickly, and gets much worse if elites, solos (or sometimes lurkers/skirmishers) are in play.

Seriously?

Your PCs would take 8-12 rounds vs 5 of these guys:

Elf Scout
HP 39
AC 16, Fort 13, Ref 15, Will 13

I think a level 4 Rogue, alone, would kill them all in 8-12 rounds.

 

[Obryn]

I think this is a key point. It is far too easy for players to see the powers as the only things they can do, and thus mentally restrict their own options. Unfortunately I find it difficult for them to play the game without having cards for the powers because of their nature and the way they are worded and used. Catch-22 at the moment!

Cheers

(1) I like Rel's idea of a DO SOMETHING AWESOME card as a reminder to DO AWESOME THINGS.

(2) I have decided that I don't care for cards. I vastly prefer a checksheet - if you use the Wiesbaden Sheet, something like the Pro Sheet version. That way, you just check off which powers have been used each (encounter/day) and don't need to shuffle them around. I know when I was a player (briefly) that I much preferred doing things this way.

My players like their cards, though. What can I say?

(3) My problem with grindiness isn't so much HPs, after thinking about it. It's hit percentages. A lot of this is because my group often rolls poorly over the course of a night - averaging about an 8 or 9. I think simple bonuses to hit would help a great deal. This could be handled by the PCs doing cool stuff; I give bonuses to hit based on interesting narrative and/or skill checks.

-O

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I have not seen the hoarding so much as the using of the daily power, then the encounter powers, then sticking with the most effective at-will rather than the other, suboptimal options.

IME, the "most effective" at-will changes as the battlefield changes. And I make sure mine does alot. My creatures move constantly, epsecially if they have a power that gives them an advantage in a flank or pack. They provoke OAs to get into position if necessary, which also helps the high HP issue by giving the PCs more attacks when its not their turn. At first I would have creatures avoid provoking OAs like the plague, but I finally realized that risking a single AO to gain combat advantage was well worth it. It makes the creatures both more effective and more easily taken down at the same time.

 

[Jack99]

In general, to those who have big issues with this grind. Try removing 25% of the monsters' hitpoints, while raising their average damage by 25% as well. That should make for quicker fights, while keeping the level of danger intact.

Some elaboration is in order. In 4e, you're lucky to see a non-daily attack do 20 points of damage, even at paragon levels.

Sorry, but you do know that this is a gross exaggeration, untrue right?

You know, even though it sounds a bit silly, I think that when I make the power cards for my group, I am going to include an Encounter card that says, "Do Something Awesome!" (because I have a house rule that allows the expenditure of Action Points + a Healing Surge to do something awesome) and an At Will card that says, "Do something creative". I might even include some of the p. 42 guidelines on that card so they have an idea of the parameters of that.

I love the DSA-card, but watch out with the additional uses of Healing Surges. They will be the commodity that limits your adventuring day.

(3) My problem with grindiness isn't so much HPs, after thinking about it. It's hit percentages. A lot of this is because my group often rolls poorly over the course of a night - averaging about an 8 or 9. I think simple bonuses to hit would help a great deal. This could be handled by the PCs doing cool stuff; I give bonuses to hit based on interesting narrative and/or skill checks.

-O

Try using more monsters, but lesser level. Sure, there might be more hit-points there, in total, but the players' hit-rate will go up as well, and thus their average damage.

 

[Rel]

I love the DSA-card, but watch out with the additional uses of Healing Surges. They will be the commodity that limits your adventuring day.

That's true but it's better than my original house rule that required that they spend an Action Point + Daily Power to use the "DSA" power.