I think we're done with 4E

[Mark]

One thing I think that isn't mentioned in this broad brush discussion is that, even at low levels, there are more powers in play (. . .)

Kinda discussed somewhere up there in that it's agreed that fighters and some classes have seemingly more options and other classes similar or less. Anyway, I think the grind boils down to using the best power one can once it is figured out and that often comes down to a spacebar tapping situation after the battle tipping point. Once the daily is gone and the encounters are used (if the daily and the encounters are useful, of course) then it often comes down to picking the best at-will (or attack) and tapping it home (with brief respites for any necessary healing).

 

[Lacyon]

Another tack to take on the 4E "hp grind" is that once the realization sets in, the monster(s) should realize this too, and begin trying to withdraw from combat. This has several benefits - its realistic, and it potentially changes the field of combat as the monster tries to leave.

Agreed. They should either be trying to withdraw, surrendering, or trying desperate tactics (such as provoking OAs in order to focus fire on a single PC).

If the monsters are bright enough to know that continuing to fight as normal is a losing grind, they shouldn't continue to fight as normal.

 

[Mark]

I think this is a key point. It is far too easy for players to see the powers as the only things they can do, and thus mentally restrict their own options.

Unless, as seems to often be the case, an at-will power becomes the most effective of the last available things one can do and then it becomes tap, tap, tap. One could mix it up by doing things that are less effective but that's not really how it is going to play out at most game tables, IME.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

That only addresses one side of the equation and doesn't change the grind insofar as PCs winding up battles repeating their most potent leftover power until the deed is done. It's the spacebar tap.

I believe the idea is that if monsters remain deadly to the end, then players may be more willing to cough up those daily powers they were hoarding.

As someone who enjoys both 4E and 3E, I find it vaguely amusing that 4E's version of the 15-minute adventuring day--a systemic problem that only some groups experience and others say is easily avoided with some DM effort--is that players may not be consuming daily resources quickly enough.

 

[Mark]

I believe the idea is that if monsters remain deadly to the end, then players may be more willing to cough up those daily powers they were hoarding.

I have not seen the hoarding so much as the using of the daily power, then the encounter powers, then sticking with the most effective at-will rather than the other, suboptimal options.

 

[Plane Sailing]

[RBDM]Or call for reinforcements![/RBDM]

Exactly what happened in my last run - the PCs outnumbered the Duergar and were spanking them, so the enemy by the door thought "blow this for a game of soldiers. I've got some mates and an ogre the other side of this door. I'll go and fetch them". Three rounds later he came back with major reinforcements!

 

[Rel]

I think this is a key point. It is far too easy for players to see the powers as the only things they can do, and thus mentally restrict their own options. Unfortunately I find it difficult for them to play the game without having cards for the powers because of their nature and the way they are worded and used. Catch-22 at the moment!

Cheers

You know, even though it sounds a bit silly, I think that when I make the power cards for my group, I am going to include an Encounter card that says, "Do Something Awesome!" (because I have a house rule that allows the expenditure of Action Points + a Healing Surge to do something awesome) and an At Will card that says, "Do something creative". I might even include some of the p. 42 guidelines on that card so they have an idea of the parameters of that.

 

[Mark]

You know, even though it sounds a bit silly, I think that when I make the power cards for my group, I am going to include an Encounter card that says, "Do Something Awesome!" (because I have a house rule that allows the expenditure of Action Points + a Healing Surge to do something awesome) and an At Will card that says, "Do something creative". I might even include some of the p. 42 guidelines on that card so they have an idea of the parameters of that.

That might be a helpful reminder. Be sure to start a new thread to allow us to follow this experiment, please.

 

[Darkthorne]

I have seen the grind as well. As for the "use the dailies" there are issues I see with that

1) The next battle you're in your daily isn't there for you to use

2) I've seen way too many misses with dailies and encounters due to either bad rolling or we just happen to target the highest defense and didn't roll well enough

3) The target that everyone kept missing ends up being a damn minion (either no controller in the group/ or was in negs)

4)Not every group has someone remotely effective with the intimidate skill

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Although if you make a lot of changes you have to wonder at what point you are no longer playing the same game . . .

That's exactly the decision we faced as a group. In order for us to get the game we want we were discussing fairly radical house rules only 6 months in. I'm not talking slight tweaks like you'd get in any system but major tweaks such as completely changing monster hit points or changing the way character powers are available etc. My feelings were if I'm having to do this now then why not just play something else?

We've never had this sort of problem with any game system before where after 6 months I wanted to change a huge chunk of it. If it was just me and not the players then I could have sort of lived with it but they all agreed as well, and as I've said above I've played every edition since basic and they've all been playing since 2nd.