I think we're done with 4E

[Lord Vangarel]

Why doesn't it?

I think it's a matter of repetition. The first few times different actions did feel new but once the players have learnt to spot the turning point it becomes old. I feel that in 4E monsters have too many hit points and like Nebulous said above 1st or 2nd level characters having to chew through a goblin solo with 300 hit points just doesn't feel the same as in previous editions.

 

[Mark]

I think it's a matter of repetition. The first few times different actions did feel new but once the players have learnt to spot the turning point it becomes old. I feel that in 4E monsters have too many hit points and like Nebulous said above 1st or 2nd level characters having to chew through a goblin solo with 300 hit points just doesn't feel the same as in previous editions.

My group has, and I while also checking out other groups and playing separate games have, also determined that there's nothing inherently heroic about dragging out the combats. Although if you make a lot of changes you have to wonder at what point you are no longer playing the same game, finding ways to cut combats to the quick post-tipping point are something definitely needed. The grind is no substitute for substance.

 

[Rel]

I think if we return to 4E I'll put a house rule in place that when a monster hits its bloodied value its gonna die very soon. Not sure what the rule would be, possibly if it gets x more hits or whatever.

See, I'm inclined to go the other direction. I'd tend to make monsters have more abilities or ways to recharge them so that they remain a threat up until the moment they're dead.

I don't yet have a Monster Manual so it's hard to for me to judge how much of the grind is built into the RAW but, again since I've heard the complaint often enough, I guess that it is. Since I didn't have a MM, I've mostly used monsters from free online adventures. But I've also had to improvise monsters where I had nothing similar.

One example was the Big Nasty Critter from the demo adventure I ran for my group in preparation of my campaign starting early next year. This creature was called a "Mist Mind" and was sort of like a big Grell with it's own flock of giant bats. The bats were Minions and had rather poor damage output but they were good at grappling. They'd swoop down and grab somebody and drop them into the giant mouth on top of the Mist Mind. Then it starts to chew on you. If it eats somebody entirely then it hatches a new bat. It also has a fairly damaging attack with its tentacles.

When I ran the combat with the Mist Mind, I knew that the PC's would have rescued some NPC's by that point and be trying to get them to safety. So this battle became one about the PC's trying to protect that NPC's from getting grabbed by the bats and dropped into the mouth of the Mist Mind, all the while trying not to become victims of it themselves. The Mist Mind managed to gobble up only one of the NPC's and hatch another bat. It nearly began chewing on one of the PC's (the Halfling Paladin) but another PC (the Eladrin Ranger) managed to Fey Step INTO its mouth and fetch him out of there.

Anyway, my point is that I think the players should never be left thinking, "Well this thing has used all it's nasty powers so we can just sit back and pick away at its hit points until it is dead." If this philosophy means that they burn through powers and Healing Surges faster and need to rest a bit more often to recover, that's fine by me. My campaigns tend in that direction anyway.

 

[Mark]

See, I'm inclined to go the other direction. I'd tend to make monsters have more abilities or ways to recharge them so that they remain a threat up until the moment they're dead.

That only addresses one side of the equation and doesn't change the grind insofar as PCs winding up battles repeating their most potent leftover power until the deed is done. It's the spacebar tap.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Another tack to take on the 4E "hp grind" is that once the realization sets in, the monster(s) should realize this too, and begin trying to withdraw from combat. This has several benefits - its realistic, and it potentially changes the field of combat as the monster tries to leave.

 

[Emirikol]

A

House rules to add randomness and speed combat:​

Per-Encounter powers : One of them may be tapped a second time (monsters and PC's).

Criticals: With the expenditure of an action point (or 5 healing surges), a d20 extra damage may be dealt (in addition to maximum). Non-minion monsters may do this once per day.

Does this solve the unrandomness and high hit points issue that causes the grind?

Jay H

 

[Rel]

That only addresses one side of the equation and doesn't change the grind insofar as PCs winding up battles repeating their most potent leftover power until the deed is done. It's the spacebar tap.

Who cares about those guys as long as I'm having fun as the GM?



Ok, kidding obviously. One thing I think that isn't mentioned in this broad brush discussion is that, even at low levels, there are more powers in play than the "two At Wills, one Encounter and one Daily" that come stock with a first level PC. There are the racial powers of some characters and several classes have features that are encounter powers. On top of that, many magic items grant powers that are powers of one variety or another.

There is also Healing. Second Wind is an Encounter Power itself and should probably be seeing use in more combats than not. Drinking Healing potions will similarly be taking up an action here and there. If a PC goes down in combat then I'd expect to see the occassional Heal check.

Speaking of which, there are any number of skills that have direct combat applications and of course an infinite variety of ways they can be used creatively. Heck I've even mentioned to my players how I like the fact that good old Page 42 lets us see things like using Intimidate checks to inflict (non-lethal) damage that could push intelligent foes to surrender.

I think creativity is key here though. One thing that I've already told my players is that, despite the fact that we'll probably have cards to represent the powers, you can't consider the cards to be the only options available to you. Gotta think outside the powers.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm curious....

How many rounds of combat does your party need to defeat a standard encounter with monsters of their level (+1)?

8 rounds seems like a LOT to me since in a normal encounter, my players average between 4-6 rounds. I haven't had a 8 rounder unless the players are going up against an Encounter +3/+4 but those are climatic battles where by round 5, it still is too close to call....

I'd guess about 8-12 rounds for a standard encounter with monsters at or about their level. It improves slightly if they are able and willing to focus fire on monsters to reduce the odds more quickly, and gets much worse if elites, solos (or sometimes lurkers/skirmishers) are in play.

Cheers

 

[Rel]

Another tack to take on the 4E "hp grind" is that once the realization sets in, the monster(s) should realize this too, and begin trying to withdraw from combat. This has several benefits - its realistic, and it potentially changes the field of combat as the monster tries to leave.

[RBDM]Or call for reinforcements![/RBDM]

 

[Plane Sailing]

despite the fact that we'll probably have cards to represent the powers, you can't consider the cards to be the only options available to you. Gotta think outside the powers.

I think this is a key point. It is far too easy for players to see the powers as the only things they can do, and thus mentally restrict their own options. Unfortunately I find it difficult for them to play the game without having cards for the powers because of their nature and the way they are worded and used. Catch-22 at the moment!

Cheers