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ICv2's Latest Quarterly Chart: D&D Top, But PF2 Is Strong

The latest chart from ICv2 is up! This represents hobby channel sales through Summer 2019, which is May-August. ICv2 compiles these charts by interviewing retailers and distributors.

pathfinder-2-playtest-cover-750x375.jpg


Dungeons & Dragons comes in first, followed by Pathfinder, Shadowrun 6E, Vampire 5th Edition, and then the current Star Wars RPG from FFG.

An interesting note is that core D&D books are not growing in hobby stores, because they struggle to compete with Amazon and WotC directly. Pathfinder 2E did better than expected (both of those statements came from hobby retailers). Interestingly, though it's May-August, PF2 only came out in August. I'm not sure how that affects things. You can read the full article at the link, but it's behind a paywall.

Last time (Spring 2019), Pathfinder was right at the bottom of the chart (as expected after a new edition is announced). Interestingly, Starfinder has dropped right off.

You can see all the charts in one big table going back to 2004 here.
 
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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

ddaley

Explorer
My two tables put a lot of effort into Starfinder but both groups found, they just didn't like it. I am not suprised by the drop off.

I was really looking forward to Starfinder, because I have been wanting to play a d20 sci fi game. But, I just haven't been excited about the APs released. If they release an AP that I can get into, then we will likely try it. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or energy to write my own adventures these days (though, I have been thinking about attempting said feat more and more lately)... especially for a new system.

I would also like to play a d20 based, post apocalyptic game too. I have been eyeing a couple to try. But, again, the availability of pre-made adventures doesn't seem to be there :(
 

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univoxs

That's my dog, Walter
Supporter
I was really looking forward to Starfinder, because I have been wanting to play a d20 sci fi game. But, I just haven't been excited about the APs released. If they release an AP that I can get into, then we will likely try it. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or energy to write my own adventures these days (though, I have been thinking about attempting said feat more and more lately)... especially for a new system.

I would also like to play a d20 based, post apocalyptic game too. I have been eyeing a couple to try. But, again, the availability of pre-made adventures doesn't seem to be there :(


Honestly, I think d20 modern does a better job than starfinder still. Though Starfinders space combat is a little better. Easily adaptable to any other d20 game I think. We moved to Mongoose Travaller instead, and while not d20, it gives you all the crunch Starfinder felt like it lacked.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
Our group pretty much dropped Starfinder in favor of both PF2 and 5E. If they ever revise Starfinder, I hope something changes about the “leveled” weapon system and its damage dice - it personally feels like the chunkiest part of an otherwise pretty smooth system. I still think damage dice should be a function of level, at least 50/50, because while I can plausibly buy a handgun doing two or three dice of damage more than a weaker model (think .22 vs .50 magnum) having a sliding scale that goes from 1d4 to freaking 8d10 drives me nuts. I get, say, a .22 rifle being very different from a .50 cal anti-personnel weapon, but the damage for level 15 to 20 weapons feels like the guns shouldn’t be person-portable!

Anyway, it’s a personal peeve, not necessarily a serious system flaw. I do think it will likely eventually get revisited with some PF2 mechanical tweaks, especially if sales actually do drop off.
 

TrippyHippy

Adventurer
My view on Starfinder is that it only really had an appeal to existing Pathfinder players. There are already a number of science fiction games out there (I play Traveller myself), so aside from it’s own idiosyncrasies there wasn’t much to create an appeal for anybody who wasn’t already wedded to the system. Like I say, I think it served as a sort of placeholder for Paizo as they went through the development of Pathfinder 2. Now that it’s arrived, Starfinder will probably just fade away a bit.
 
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jedijon

Explorer
It could be - considering this is survey data - that the respondents themselves are the ones lumping Pathfinder brands together.

So either we’ve got Paizo fanboys jumping ship, game store owners separating product into WotC / the rest shelves...or perhaps opinion-based-sales ‘data’ is just a particular bee-under-bonnet for some...
 

BrokenTwin

Explorer
I'm saddened but not surprised by the fact that Shadow of the Demon Lord isn't on the list. It might be mentioned behind the paywall, but I'm not signing up to a site for a single article.

StarFinder being a splash in the pan doesn't surprise me, as it really felt more like a testing ground for PF2 concepts than something that was meant to be its own thing. But, as others have mentioned, it's possible it's being lumped together under the Pathfinder label, which would both mask its presence and artificially inflate PF2's presence.

Still, PF2 is clearly gaining traction, despite the naysayers. And while it's definitely not my thing to GM, I'm hoping it grows enough to provide some solid competition to D&D. More diversity in the public eye of the hobby will always be a good thing.
 

Ghost2020

Explorer
Supporter
My view on Starfinder is that it only really had an appeal to existing Pathfinder players. There are already a number of science fiction games out there (I play Traveller myself), so aside from it’s own idiosyncrasies there wasn’t much to create an appeal for anybody who wasn’t already wedded to the system. Like I say, I think it served as a sort of placeholder for Paizo as they went through the development of Pathfinder 2. Now that it’s arrived, Starfinder will probably just fade away a bit.


Much like 1st ed Alternity was for D&D, to some degree. No, Alternity was not D&D in space, but some people seemed to think it was that. Whereas Starfinder unabashedly embraces the 'D&D in space' and it's still met with middling enthusiasm.
 

Much like 1st ed Alternity was for D&D, to some degree. No, Alternity was not D&D in space, but some people seemed to think it was that. Whereas Starfinder unabashedly embraces the 'D&D in space' and it's still met with middling enthusiasm.

I think we really need to update the post to say there were no Starfinder rulebooks released in the quarter in question. We won't actually know anything until the next report comes out for Q3.
 

TrippyHippy

Adventurer
I'm saddened but not surprised by the fact that Shadow of the Demon Lord isn't on the list. It might be mentioned behind the paywall, but I'm not signing up to a site for a single article.
Has it ever been on the list? Note that the sales of a game aren’t determined by whether a website chooses to cover it or not. There isn’t a conspiracy here - it’s just not a mainstream seller.
 

BrokenTwin

Explorer
Has it ever been on the list? Note that the sales of a game aren’t determined by whether a website chooses to cover it or not. There isn’t a conspiracy here - it’s just not a mainstream seller.
I'm just wishing it was a more popular game. Especially since I much prefer it over D&D5e. That's all.
 

Reynard

Legend
Much like 1st ed Alternity was for D&D, to some degree. No, Alternity was not D&D in space, but some people seemed to think it was that. Whereas Starfinder unabashedly embraces the 'D&D in space' and it's still met with middling enthusiasm.
The original Alternity was a gem. I especially loved both the Star Drive and Dark Matter settings. It's too bad it got kicked in favor of d20 Modern/Future.
 


Ghost2020

Explorer
Supporter
The original Alternity was a gem. I especially loved both the Star Drive and Dark Matter settings. It's too bad it got kicked in favor of d20 Modern/Future.

Look into the 2nd edition, it changes some things, rolling high, but it still seems to be a solid system.
 

Reynard

Legend
Look into the 2nd edition, it changes some things, rolling high, but it still seems to be a solid system.
I played it at GenCon a couple years back and did not get the same sense of awesome, but that could be a combination of it still being in the playtest stage at that point, and the core setting being a pretty blatant Expanse pastiche.
 

Ghost2020

Explorer
Supporter
I played it at GenCon a couple years back and did not get the same sense of awesome, but that could be a combination of it still being in the playtest stage at that point, and the core setting being a pretty blatant Expanse pastiche.

The new settings don't exactly light me on fire either. I'm still hoping they keep pushing the system forward though. I have yet to run it, but it reads like it should be fun.
 

unknowable

Explorer
Out of curiosity, what alterations do you make?

Ah, I would have to be at my computer to find a complete list of changes (not running it atm as I tend to cycle systems)

But I used some momentum changes (extra dice are bought for more momentum 1 for the first, 2 for the second 3 for the third). I use the RAW reading of momentum combat spends (that is combat momentum options like piercing and the like can only be spent if you generate momentum on your turn. This is RAW but not RAI, it makes the game more interesting though).

I limit the maximum TN people can have at level 1 to be 14 and use the shadows of the past character generation rules. Depending on the story/setting people may be forbidden from taking magical options without meeting a npc patron first (in game).

I did something to steely glare, I cannot remember what it was but it involved combat momentum spends for repeated use in a scene and a minor display requirement.

Zones I only occasionally use and generally use more traditional 10ft immediate, 30ft increments. This was just a speed of building combat maps thing rather than anything to do with thematics though.

Oh and I had some changes to minion/mob/squad rules that made minons less of a idle concern (although the changes to momentum spends and lower TNs helped with that).
 

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