D&D 5E Ideas for Initiative house rules

[CleverNickName]

For Initiative checks, I like using Intelligence instead of Dexterity (not in addition to, not as an alternative to, but instead of Dexterity.) Thus, initiative becomes less about quick reflexes and more about quick thinking. It also steals a bit of thunder from the most over-utilized ability score in 5E, and gives it to the least-utilized.

 

[Lanefan]

5e uses the concept of "until your next turn" as shorthand for "affects each target for one action". If you change initiative by round, this gets thrown off. Some can be affected for for multiple turns (say going after in one round and before in the next), other might suffer no effects at all (going before in one round and after in the next).

This is a good thing, as it adds to the randomness factor.

Side initiative can lead to really overwhelming focus fire. Because there's no repositioning between different moves or chance to heal, it really leads to people dropping with less chance to be tactical. Neither of those are positive enjoyment factors for players.

Agreed. Individual initiative all the way.

Lastly choosing order among players, such as popcorn, really changes the value of some abilities. For example, it makes a mockery of getting dropped to zero - when you can make sure you will never lose an action because you will always get healed before it's your initiative, but not to far in advance you might drop again, it exasperates the "pop-up healing" issues tenfold. Other things like pushing a foe prone could mean that your then have a bunch of that side able to attack with advantage without any chance of the target getting a move to get up. Heck, do it late in a round and you can have all of the melee members of your party go twice - once this round and then at the top of next round - without any chance for the foe to get up. And of course the other way works with intelligent foes.

Agreed again; the answer is random roll each round.

 

[BacchusNL]

For Initiative checks, I like using Intelligence instead of Dexterity (not in addition to, not as an alternative to, but instead of Dexterity.) Thus, initiative becomes less about quick reflexes and more about quick thinking. It also steals a bit of thunder from the most over-utilized ability score in 5E, and gives it to the least-utilized.

I like the idea mechanicly, or atleast the idea that Intelligence needs more attention, but thematically I think it suits Wisdom better. Something that I've had in the back of my mind for a long time is a system where your even breakpoints still give the +1 hit/ dmg/ saving throw bonusses like they always have, but the odd breakpoints give other side-benefits. That way a 11 or 13 in a stat wouldn't feel so useless. Initiative could be tied to this. For example (and i'm just spitballing here):

9 dex: disadvantage on a stealth checks can never be negated by a source of advantage*
11 dex: You can use dex instead of str to determine jump distance
13 dex: +1 initiative
15 dex:+5 feet movement speed
17 dex: Your ranged attacks ignore disadvantage from the prone condition and melee attacks vs incapacitated enemies always crit
19 dex: +1 initiative and (maybe) something extra on top that is useful and thematic for every dex user, with a once per short rest cooldown. Perhaps something like the weapon abilities in Baldurs Gate 3. Or go wild with something like "You get 2 reactions per round". It would be a way to get people to aim harder for ASI's over feats or could serve as a sort of capstone-ability in campaigns that don't reach level 20.

9 Wisdom: You have a 5% higher chance to spawn enemies when you are on watch
11 wisdom: +1 initiative
13 wisdom: **
15 wisdom: +1 initiative
17 wisdom:**
19 wisdom:**

Int could also have get an initiative-tier somewhere. The main idea is that I think it would make sense that what a bonus to initiative represents could come for a part from wisdom, a part from dexterity and another part from intelligence. If we are going with a +5 bonus (from the classic 20 dex) then perhaps it should be 2 from wis, 2 from dex, 2 from int but those are things that can be filled in at will.

*maybe that's harsh or not at all, i dunno, but it's a place where you can, within reason and creativly, punish stat dumping.
** I can't really keep thinking up side-examples to illustrate a point, but i'm up for expanding on the idea if people are interested.

 

[Don Durito]

I think people generally oversestimate the value of the initiative modifer. It's worth at most 25% and you only roll it the once for the whole combat. It becomes much more valuale if you roll it every round.

 

[Lanefan]

I like the idea mechanicly, or atleast the idea that Intelligence needs more attention, but thematically I think it suits Wisdom better. Something that I've had in the back of my mind for a long time is a system where your even breakpoints still give the +1 hit/ dmg/ saving throw bonusses like they always have, but they odd breakpoints give other side-benefits. Initiative could be tied to this. For example (and i'm just spitballing here):

9 dex: disadvantage on a stealth checks can never be negated by a source of advantage*
11 dex: You can use dex instead of str to determine jump distance
13 dex: +1 initiative
15 dex:+5 feet movement speed
17 dex: Your ranged attacks ignore disadvantage from the prone condition and melee attacks vs incapacitated enemies always crit
19 dex: Something that is useful and thematic for every dex user, with a once per short rest cooldown. Perhaps something like the weapon abilities in Baldurs Gate 3. Or go wild with something like "You get 2 reactions per round". It would be a way to get people to aim harder for ASI's then feats and could serve as a sort of capstone-ability in campaigns that don't reach level 20.

9 Wisdom: You have a 5% higher chance to spawn enemies when you are on watch
11 wisdom: +1 initiative
13 wisdom: **
15 wisdom: +1 initiative
17 wisdom:**
19 wisdom:**

Int could also have get an initiative-tier somewhere. I think it could make sense that most of what a bonus to initiative represents comes from wisdom, a part from dexterity and another part from intelligence.


*maybe that's harsh or not at all, i dunno, but it's a place where you can, within reason and creativly, punish stat dumping.
** I can't really keep thinking up side-examples to prove a point, but i'm up for expanding on the idea if people are interested.

You're on to something here.

I love that it finds a good use for odd-numbered stats.

Serious caution about power creep. Already here someone with Wis 13 and Dex 15 is +3 to initiative, along with any other modifiers they have. If you're using this to replace those other modifiers, however, then no problem.

You'd want to expand the lists downward at least to include 7-stats and maybe even 5s, for those who doun't use point-buy or array and thus can have characters get that low; and as in theory this would also apply to monsters and foes.

 

[BacchusNL]

You're on to something here.

I love that it finds a good use for odd-numbered stats.

Serious caution about power creep. Already here someone with Wis 13 and Dex 15 is +3 to initiative, along with any other modifiers they have. If you're using this to replace those other modifiers, however, then no problem.

You'd want to expand the lists downward at least to include 7-stats and maybe even 5s, for those who doun't use point-buy or array and thus can have characters get that low; and as in theory this would also apply to monsters and foes.

Yeah, the system i described would remove the standard bonus to initiative from dexterity at even breakpoints, not add it on top.

And yes, there will be some inevitable power-creep, although the aim is to keep bonuses limited to something akin to+5 feet movement speed. Useful but not gamebreaking.

I also think there is room for, and a certain beauty too, interactions that can develop between for example a bard that casts many hypnotic patterns and the rogue who learns to capitlize on that by getting crits on those enemies, as a higher tier ability like 17 dex can illustrate.

Lastly I think it also be used to fill a lot of "sense-gaps". 15 in intelligence could give something like "you have extensive knowledge on the races and monsters of Faerun" essentially acknowledging metagaming in a sensible way and allowing a Wizard and other high int classes to go "uhm, that's a Mind Flayer. We need to back up" or "I read about those creatures, they have powerful stun blast which attacks the mind" instead of an awkward "so...uh...what does my character know about them?"*.

*Obviously not suitable if you have players at your table who take this as an excuse to keep the MM at their side and immediatly quote you the AC of the enemy you just revealed.

 

[Rabulias]

As I say often when this comes up, ignoring that a Greatsword or spear is faster than a dagger in all practical terms for simplicity's sake is fine (as is conversely ignoring the fact that a dagger is much better when you're actually inside the guard - a level of detail that D&D has never attempted to model).

Well, not officially, no, but there is the Attack Priority system for AD&D 1st edition by Ronald Hall way back in Dragon Magazine 71. Attacks in that system had two Initiative modifiers: one for Closing and one for In-Range. It also included rules for Fending (keeping your opponent at bay with your longer weapon), Retreating (extricating yourself from in-range to closing distance to use your longer weapon more effectively), and Pressing (a counter-maneuver to try to keep up with a retreating opponent). Good modifiers and rolls could even grant additional attacks against slower opponents. They even included Closing/In-range modifiers for the monsters in the AD&D Monster Manual calculated out. Weapon length, wielder size, wielder Dexterity, and Hit Dice (for monsters) applied to Closing modifiers. Weapon speed (!), wielder Strength, wielder Dexterity, and Hit Dice (again, monsters only) applied to In-range mods. PCs gained bonuses to both when they gained new weapon proficiencies.

It sounds complex, but once you had your weapons' mods written down, it went pretty smoothly. It's too fiddly for 5e though, and was predicated on rolling initiative every round. The basic concept of closing and in-range might be useful?

 

[Scott Christian]

What initiative house rules do you use?

I'm tempted to borrow from Pathfinder 2E and allow PCs to use skills to make initiative checks (Stealth if you're sneaking, Deception if you're trying to sucker punch, etc). Though monsters don't tend to have the skill arrays that PCs have.

I'm also tempted to make the default check Wisdom rather than Dex.

Triggering a combat -- if you're the one launching it, you get advantage on your check. You'll probably go first, but somebody fast might manage to anticipate or interrupt that action.

For mine, I assign different skills to the creatures. For example, a group of feral goblins might respond to intimidation. I throw the hint out there, and one player rolls their intimidation skill. If they win, the group (in a pre-assigned order) goes first. If the PC fails, the goblins go first. Savage style orcs use are hesitant to act against someone really athletic. For a mind flayer, you need to outwit it. This adds a new wrinkle to the game, making the PC's learn something new about a creature they've known (as a player) for 20 years.

 

[Zaukrie]

Now, I will be the first to say "play the way you like," but for me, Int has never been in any way associated with reaction times. If I wanted to tie a mental stat to initiative it would be Wis. That being said, a feat or class ability that added Int to initiative, particularly one that flavored it as the result of planning, would be entirely appropriate.

Why is combat about reaction time? It's about openings and advantages, and skills, and training. Way more than reaction time.

 

[Rabulias]

Why is combat about reaction time? It's about openings and advantages, and skills, and training. Way more than reaction time.

How well/quickly can you perceive/take advantage of (or even anticipate) those openings? That's what Initiative could represent when using Int or Wis.