If 3.0 Haste were a spell in 3.5, what level would it be?

[Stalker0]

I'd just go with making it a 3rd level spell that can be cast as a Swift action and lasts only one round. Need to cast fireball AND invisibility? Drop this 3rd-level spell, and you can do that. Party's fighter needs to make a full attack AND a move action? Now he can. For one round.

In essence, it's a 3rd-level spell that duplicates the d20 Modern Heroic Surge.

So for the cost of a 3rd level spell, I can now emulate an ability (quicken spell) that costs a FEAT and requires a +4 spell level adjustment, meaning the weakest quicken spell is a 5th level spell (yes, I'm not including 0th level spells). And let us not forget that they allows us to cast two 9th level spells in a round, instead of the maximum 9th level followed by 5th level spell (due to quicken's +4)

I'm consuming less resources in terms of high level spell slots, I don't have to take a feat, AND I can make a fighter more powerful if I don't want to bump my spellcasting. How is that balanced?

 

[The_Ditto]

Here's another thought ...

Currently Haste (3.5) grants a +30 ft movement enhancement ...

What if we remove that, and instead have Haste grant the target an extra Move Action ..
(as opposed to a Standard Action)
??

Ok, I'm sure it could be used to pop out a couple move action spells a round ... but there aren't that many of those .. and certainly not the tough/"game-breaking" ones, are there?

*shrug*
Just a thought ...

 

[Plane Sailing]

Wait... it works on the caster?!
-- N

That will teach me to write in a hurry...

I like the idea of slow being symmetrical to haste, and the current slow cripples a lot of enemies too much, to my mind... hence my revision of it here (and, of course, it is designed to affect a target rather than being personal)

 

[airwalkrr]

I would make it a 9th level spell. Sure, time stop does more for one round and if you do not wish to use your extra actions to attack, but 3.0 haste does more over an extended period of time and allows you to attack or cast one extra spell each round.

 

[victorysaber]

Just a question, the vibes I'm getting are that

3.0 Haste > Time Stop

Is that really the case?

 

[airwalkrr]

Just a question, the vibes I'm getting are that

3.0 Haste > Time Stop

Is that really the case?

Not really. See above. However, the ability of granting extra standard actions is common to them both, hence a comparison is quite appropriate since standard actions are one of the most powerful elements of the game.

 

[Nifft]

Just a question, the vibes I'm getting are that

3.0 Haste > Time Stop

Is that really the case?

In many cases, YES.

Let's assume you're going to buff yourself via time stop. The more rounds you have in time stop'd mode, the better off you are. You are better off casting haste and then time stop than casting time stop alone, since haste effectively doubles the duration of your time stop.

Let's assume you are going to do some mixed summoning & blasting during a fight. You plan on using time stop to do some summoning, and then you plan on blasting after that. Haste is often better (but not always) -- you can cast haste and blast on round 1, then summon & blast once per round for the duration. You know when to stop summoning (while with time stop, you spend your summons all up front). Time stop is better if you need those summons to be done in round 1. This is not a rare condition.

If you're going to blast, haste wins hands down. You could use a bunch of delay blast fireballs (7th level) with time stop, or you could cast haste and get two 3rd level fireballs and one quickened fireball (7th level).

- - -

Now, buffing is a strong tactic, but offense wins in D&D. Since haste doubles (or increases by 1/3 if you're well set up with Quickened spells) your offensive action potential, it's stronger. Than anything.

The primary limit at high level is the limited number of actions you can take before someone else gets to take their turn trying to kill you. 3.0e haste breaks that limit.

Cheers, -- N

 

[victorysaber]

In many cases, YES.

Let's assume you're going to buff yourself via time stop. The more rounds you have in time stop'd mode, the better off you are. You are better off casting haste and then time stop than casting time stop alone, since haste effectively doubles the duration of your time stop.

Let's assume you are going to do some mixed summoning & blasting during a fight. You plan on using time stop to do some summoning, and then you plan on blasting after that. Haste is often better (but not always) -- you can cast haste and blast on round 1, then summon & blast once per round for the duration. You know when to stop summoning (while with time stop, you spend your summons all up front). Time stop is better if you need those summons to be done in round 1. This is not a rare condition.

If you're going to blast, haste wins hands down. You could use a bunch of delay blast fireballs (7th level) with time stop, or you could cast haste and get two 3rd level fireballs and one quickened fireball (7th level).

- - -

Now, buffing is a strong tactic, but offense wins in D&D. Since haste doubles (or increases by 1/3 if you're well set up with Quickened spells) your offensive action potential, it's stronger. Than anything.

The primary limit at high level is the limited number of actions you can take before someone else gets to take their turn trying to kill you. 3.0e haste breaks that limit.

Cheers, -- N

I see. In other words, 3.0 Haste gives 1.5 times as many actions as Time Stop does? Am I correct to make that conclusion? As in, 3.0 Haste gives 1 standard + 1 move + 1 partial per round, but Time Stop only gives 1 standard + 1 move per round?

So Time Stop gives less actions but you get to take them all at once, but 3.0 Haste gives you more actions over a given period of time?

 

[Brain]

I've seen it as a homebrewed 7th level spell that lasts 1d4 rounds, giving double actions. It is still broken in that version, in my opinion. Anything that gives more actions or modifies the cost of actions should be very closely watched and probably disallowed, in my opinion.

I'd advise extreme caution converting 3.0 haste, or else the game will become centered around it and ways to counter it.

 

[Nifft]

I see. In other words, 3.0 Haste gives 1.5 times as many actions as Time Stop does? Am I correct to make that conclusion? As in, 3.0 Haste gives 1 standard + 1 move + 1 partial per round, but Time Stop only gives 1 standard + 1 move per round?

So Time Stop gives less actions but you get to take them all at once, but 3.0 Haste gives you more actions over a given period of time?

You are mostly right on the money. Time stop gives 1d4+1 (average 3.5) free rounds of action. If you don't have an Quickened spells, that means you get to cast ~3.5 spells for the price of a 9th level spell. (With Quickened spells, you get more, but they're lower level.)

Also, note that time stop limits the type of action you can take. You can't usefully cast fireball, for example:

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

For summoning, buffing, laying down illusions, or battlefield control (wall of ..., black tentacles), time stop may well be superior. (If you want to cast more than two spells on the first round.) Otherwise, a Quickened haste is better, since it buys you two 9th level spells in the first round (same as the minimum extra actions from a time stop) plus 19 rounds of bonus haste.

Worse, in combination, haste + time stop = extended time stop, a 10th level spell. Plus a bonus 20 - (1d4+1) rounds of haste...

- - -

Basically, if what you want to do is cast spells, haste makes any strategy twice as effective. Not always, but almost always.

Cheers, -- N