If 3.0 Haste were a spell in 3.5, what level would it be?

[Destil]

Here's another thought ...

Currently Haste (3.5) grants a +30 ft movement enhancement ...

What if we remove that, and instead have Haste grant the target an extra Move Action ..
(as opposed to a Standard Action)
??

Ok, I'm sure it could be used to pop out a couple move action spells a round ... but there aren't that many of those .. and certainly not the tough/"game-breaking" ones, are there?

*shrug*
Just a thought ...

It would make haste still a must have for melee fighter types, because it allows them to move in and then full attack the same round. People forget that wizards aren't the only ones who can break an extra action every round in half...

 

[green slime]

Okay, thinking finally done.

Hast3.0
Transmutation
Level: Bard 2, Sorc/Wiz 2 (but see below)
Duration: 1 round
Target: You
Range: Personal
Casting time: 1 Swift action

You gain a +2 Dodge bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Reflex saves.

You can cast any spell of the same level as hast3.0 or lower as part of casting this spell, or you can gain an extra attack at your full BAB, or you gain an extra Move action.

Special: If you prepare spells, you automatically gain the effect of Heighten when you prepare this spell in a higher spell slot.

Special: If you spontaneously cast spells, you automatically gain the effect of Heighten when you use a higher level spell slot to cast this spell, but you still cast it as a Swift action.



There. Now you do not get a free 9th level spell for the price of a 3rd level spell, but you can get a free 9th level spell for the price of another 9th level spell.

Thoughts?

Thanks, -- N

Hi Nifft.

Once again you come across with some niffty ideas. I like this alot.

In fact, I've been wanting such complex spells for some time. Spells that, similr to psionics, do more when used in higher slots. Other spells that would be suitable for the same (or similar) treatment, would be feather fall/levitate/fly/improved fly; increasing speed, manueverability, reducing casting time and extending duration but still with the same name.

My one issue with your spell as presented, is that it does nothing more for the warrior type, when cast from a 9th level slot, than when cast from a 2nd level slot.

I suggest: increasing the benefit of the dodge bonus and the reflex bonus to equal the level of the spell slot used. I'd also suggest gaining one extra attack at full BAB or one extra move action per 2 levels of spell slot used (so Hast3.0 from an 8th level spell slot grants: +8 dodge bonus to AC, +8 Reflex saves, and either 4 extra attacks at full BAB or an additional 4 move actions or the ability to cast an extra 8th level standard action spell.

While on the surface, 4 full BAB standard action attacks may seem alot, this is an 8th level spell. Likewise, 4 extra move actions may seem extreme, (so 5 move actions and 1 standard action that round), yet 8th level spells are supposed to be powerful.

Secondly, there should be a second level anti-hast3.0 which counters hast3.0, which would automatically counter the effects of hast3.0, regardless of which level spell slot was used to power the hast3.0.

 

[Brain]

Regarding Nifft's Hast3.0 draft-

My issue with Hast3.0 is that it basically emulates other affects that allow you to apply metamagic feats to your highest level of spell. For instance it is similar to Divine Metamagic (Quicken), or Sudden Quicken, which both have at least two feats required to pull the trick off. It allows you to quicken your highest level spell before you should be able to. Even if the cost is another slot of the same level, I'm wary.
Maybe the caveat that you can only put it in a slot four levels lower than your max slot and make it a 1st level scalable spell? Then when you can cast 5th level spells, you could use 2 1st level slots to 'quicken' a 1st level spell instead of using one 5th level slot. This would be a no-brainer spell for sorcerers, even in a reduced form.

 

[Li Shenron]

Regarding Nifft's Hast3.0 draft-

My issue with Hast3.0 is that it basically emulates other affects that allow you to apply metamagic feats to your highest level of spell. For instance it is similar to Divine Metamagic (Quicken), or Sudden Quicken, which both have at least two feats required to pull the trick off. It allows you to quicken your highest level spell before you should be able to. Even if the cost is another slot of the same level, I'm wary.
Maybe the caveat that you can only put it in a slot four levels lower than your max slot and make it a 1st level scalable spell? Then when you can cast 5th level spells, you could use 2 1st level slots to 'quicken' a 1st level spell instead of using one 5th level slot. This would be a no-brainer spell for sorcerers, even in a reduced form.

Yeah, perhaps this could be one of those areas where it is hard to mix 3.0 and 3.5 after all... It's not just the Haste spell that it is different: maybe it's a whole 3.5 idea that "two spells per round must cost a lot".

 

[Nifft]

Totally. For Sorcerers, it's a replacement Quicken -- since Quicken is useless to Sorcerers (under Core rules -- and likewise for the poor, forgotten Bard). For Wizards, it's a tactical consideration -- they're usually better of buying a Rod of Quickening, and thus using metamagic on their highest spell levels via a magic item. For a Sorcerer, the question is when to take this spell, not if he should take it. (For a Wizard, it's an odd-ball spell -- not nearly as useful as a Rod of Metamagic, unless he regularly uses a bunch of 1st and 2nd level self-buffs in combat.)

For the Gish, it's a 2nd level "extra attack" spell, or a 2nd level "move and full attack" spell. This makes a high-level BAB +15 Gish more dangerous, close to where a BAB +20 warrior would be (but for a limited number of rounds).

I'm not particularly keen on boosting the incidental bonuses too much more with respect to levels. As a multi-use utility spell, it should be strictly inferior to all the other options that are available -- e.g. the extra spell slot per round costs the same as the spell you are Quickening, as opposed to +4 levels. This starts out cheap in terms of spell levels (when you have few spells per day), but becomes more expensive if you want to Quicken high level spells.

Finally, for a Gish, the major benefit of using a higher level spell-slot would be gaining the benefit of a higher-level buff spell, and still getting in a full attack. That's quite strong IMHO.

Anyway. Just my thoughts on this thorny haste issue.

Cheers, -- N

 

[green slime]

Regarding Nifft's Hast3.0 draft-

My issue with Hast3.0 is that it basically emulates other affects that allow you to apply metamagic feats to your highest level of spell. For instance it is similar to Divine Metamagic (Quicken), or Sudden Quicken, which both have at least two feats required to pull the trick off. It allows you to quicken your highest level spell before you should be able to. Even if the cost is another slot of the same level, I'm wary.
Maybe the caveat that you can only put it in a slot four levels lower than your max slot and make it a 1st level scalable spell? Then when you can cast 5th level spells, you could use 2 1st level slots to 'quicken' a 1st level spell instead of using one 5th level slot. This would be a no-brainer spell for sorcerers, even in a reduced form.

I dunno that this is a real problem: at the level at which you gain three spells of your highest level, do you really want to burn all of those spells in the first round of a single encounter? You'd have to be pretty sure that you were really facing the BBEG, and not some dressed up flunky, an illusion, or were due to face more serious opposition just a little further down the road. It seems more of a Campaign issue or DM issue, rather than anything wrong with the opportunity cost.

 

[diaglo]

For me? Probably 6th or 7th.

i'd go with 6th if it also made you exhausted or is that fatigued in the revision much like rage. heck, i'd make it much like rage. you can't perform any action which requires you to concentrate. your body just isn't used to moving that fast so it throws your ability to concentrate off.