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If all the designers who left WotC...

Kzach

Banned
Banned
If you dig around, I think you'll find that's not quite true.

Whatever, man. The only point I'm trying to make is that I think that it'd be cool if all these dudes got together and created some sort of SRPG (Super RPG... as opposed to a SuperS RPG).

Instead, they've all gone their separate ways and made their own little projects. Which is cool and given us all some great stuff, but so far the only one that's managed to turn it into a big success seems to have been Paizo. Which only serves to encourage my point; if Paizo can do it, then it means it can be done, and WotC don't have to be the only dog in the race.

At the end of the day, I truly believe that money and labels don't make great things; I believe that people make great things. And the people that have done great things at WotC could do great things together outside of WotC.
 

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Dice4Hire

First Post
At the end of the day, I truly believe that money and labels don't make great things; I believe that people make great things. And the people that have done great things at WotC could do great things together outside of WotC.

Maybe, maybe not. Are they able to work together? Why did the most recent defection from WOTC happen? Would the same happen with a group of these ex-WOTC people?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Which is cool and given us all some great stuff, but so far the only one that's managed to turn it into a big success seems to have been Paizo.

Which sort of proves my point, as Paizo didn't do a major innovation - they just tweaked a known technology.

Which only serves to encourage my point; if Paizo can do it, then it means it can be done, and WotC don't have to be the only dog in the race.

The difference, really, isn't in the game or designers. Paizo had a following (okay, the designers have that, too), they already had a position in the market from magazines and adventures, and they had significant capital to invest in the new venture.

In this age of crowd-funding, your consortium of designers might well be able to come up with the capital. But that's a recent development - before a couple years ago, you'd need a bank (ha!) or someone like Adkison to help them out.

At the end of the day, I truly believe that money and labels don't make great things; I believe that people make great things.

Depends on what you mean by "great things". There's great (high quality) and there's great (market success). Money and labels won't make quality out of thin air. Good marketing, however, can create market success without particularly high quality.
 



P1NBACK

Banned
Banned
Whatever, man. The only point I'm trying to make is that I think that it'd be cool if all these dudes got together and created some sort of SRPG (Super RPG... as opposed to a SuperS RPG).

Instead, they've all gone their separate ways and made their own little projects. Which is cool and given us all some great stuff, but so far the only one that's managed to turn it into a big success seems to have been Paizo. Which only serves to encourage my point; if Paizo can do it, then it means it can be done, and WotC don't have to be the only dog in the race.

At the end of the day, I truly believe that money and labels don't make great things; I believe that people make great things. And the people that have done great things at WotC could do great things together outside of WotC.

This kind of reminds me of how sometimes people speculate about great musicians getting together to form a "Super Band".

You know what, they might be able to churn out some decent material, but that doesn't mean it's going to be as inspired or great as something they might put out by themselves or with a couple dudes who's name you don't know but they work better with.

And, at the end of the day, I'd rather listen to Stone Temple Pilots and Guns N' Roses than Velvet Revolver, or, Soundgarden and Rage Against the Machine than Audioslave.

This does bring up and interesting issue of corporate design with people you might not have a great bond with (ala WotC) versus smaller design with one or two people you have chosen to work with explicitly.
 

mkill

Adventurer
I mean, you have the perfect edition ruleset for a direct-to-videogame translation, where every power is codified according to strict easy-to-program templates, and what do they they with it?

Sorry for getting slightly off topic, but I've read this 100 times and it's still BS...

4th edition is not a good video game rules set. It was never designed with video games in mind.

Just look at the whole action economy: 4th edition has tons of interrupts and other off-turn powers. That's hell to implement in a user interface. How would you do that? Should there be a dialog popping up "the monster attacked an ally, do you want to use your Divine Challenge?" It works great at the game table, but not in a video game. And it's questionable any game company would want to make a purely turn-based RPG anyway.

The other problem is the exception-based design. It's no problem on the character sheet, but it's hell to implement in software if every class has their own little special mechanics. Just think how complicated just the character builder is. Now imagine you have to implement that all in an actual game.

The tactical complexity is another issue. 4E D&D monsters require a pretty smart AI, unlike, say, WOW monsters that purely follow aggro.

On the other hand, 4E deliberately cuts the things that computers handle really well - keeping track of thousands of modifiers and conditions and their duration, big numbers...

Really, if you had to write a video game RPG, 4E is not the best go to system.
 

Gorgoroth

Banned
Banned
easy

Interrupts are easy enough to implement in a videogame: While I'm holding this button down, and the enemy attacks me, do this in return. If we're talking about a real-time game I agree that AEDU (with the "daily" part), doesn't work at all, they'd have to use different timeouts to represent that.

If certain powers have tricky triggers, ignore them. Or simplify the trigger to make selecting it by the gamer in the UI to make sense visually.

A 4e game could have, say, a daily with a 15 minute realtime timeout and an encounter like a 30 second one. So in a videogame you'd definitely be much better off optimizing your at-wills meaning of course twin-strike is even more powerful than it is. But those are balance issues that can be fixed by varying the timeouts or the damage or just errataing the powers themselves. You could still even print out your character sheet in the same format.

4e is definitely way more streamlined. Prone? Easy to implement. Major image spell in 3e / PF? Not so much. 4e grid-based fireball? Easy as pie. Volumetric D&D fireball that expands to fit its total volume in any direction, cracks, shape of corridors? MUCH harder. You need fluid dynamics and air equations -- i.e. real physics -- to make that work.

Some of the AI problems are intractable, hard problems, that would be in any edition, but combat powers would be MUCH easier to optimize the AI around in 4e than in, say, pathfinder. You build neural nets or heuristic probability tables with a few base heuristics input by the designers, and let some genetic algorithm optimize the decision tree. Again, much easier to do that, with tons of powers that are all fairly uniform, than with spells or class abilities that are quite different or built on a non-specific description of what it can do.

I'm not saying all PP features or class features in 4e would be easy, but most are pretty simple and the desired behavior or classes like the warlock, which a lot of smart human players might not even play optimally would pass the muster.

Try coding the insight that a wizard PC might use Shrink on a sword so they can pass it through the gate to his friend on the other side in an AI. This type of versatile, dynamic AI is waaaaaaaay harder in other editions, because spells can have out of combat uses on the terrain that affect, in a roundabout way, the terrain. Trust me, I make RPGs for a living as a gameplay programmer and have 15 titles to my credit. I know whereof I speak. I like 4e for this reason, and am VERY disappointed nobody built a decent subset of it into a game so I can play my dragonborn ranger/paladin when my DM is busy or the campaign fizzles. We only ever got to 13th level in 4e, and everyone in my rather larger circle of gaming friends has since stopped playing. Sad, but true. A 4e game would have allowed me to keep playing it. I like video games, that's not a slight to 4e, but their similarities are well known and NOT bull dung.

I'd rather have to try implementing the 4e PHB than any other edition, for sure. It might not work as well as some other custom ruleset, but you never specified if it's for a real-time game or a strategy game. A turn based RPG on a grid is one of the simplest things you can do, no matter the number of permutations involved in power selection or targetting. Who says the golins always have to behave optimally all the time? Let them make mistakes. You can patch or tweak that, post launch if you have to, once you've recovered the usage/kill metrics and heat maps that you need to mine that type of data.

I would definitely start by hardcoding the tricks from the char op boards, e.g. every ranger, no matter the build, has Twin Strike as one of their at-wills. And so on. I look at my 4e character sheet and see a set of easy instructions on how to run this character on a grid in a turn-based combat. I look at my PF alchemist sheet and see next to nothing (I rarely look at it, in fact) that tells me what my options are for next battle or next round. Sure I keep track of the number of times I've turned into a werewolf or extracts I've consumed and my HP, but aside from that, the exact beast I turn into, the alter self I do that gives me a number of movement -- even breathing and senses -- modulates how I would even BEGIN to think about implementing it in a fun way.
 


fireinthedust

Explorer
Ah, yes. I didn't know what that was on the horizon. Thanks for clearing it up that it was the goalposts.

--Erik

Just saying: I find adventures harder to write than rules. You need to know everything to put into an adventure. You have to make the rules work for adventures. People judge adventures, they take for granted the rules.
 

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