If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?

Hussar

Legend
Yeah, so many times traps seem to defy common sense. Contact poison in hallway doors? Does the owner do his own cleaning? Nobody ever come home drunk after party? Massive structures and mechanisms that can be beaten by low level magics or common gear? Sounds like screen doors on submarines to me.

But, each of us has our own tastes and thresholds for what we want our worlds to be like.

Give me a hallway with floor tiles that are dangerous if you get cockatrices released by guards at other side (extreme weight breaks thru dropping statue into moat below) or that after triggered by guard your getting feared and running (or just forced to retreat) proves to be a major problem.

Heh. I'll be honest, although I fail more often that I succeed, I do at least try to use examples as they are presented without trying to get too bogged down by the details. The point about the contact poison on the door was, "How do you resolve a simple (or fairly simple) trap"? While the example is kinda silly, the point is well made. How different groups handle this sort of stuff really drills down to the basics of the differences between tables. Obviously my game and say, [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]'s are probably fairly different. :D I don't do things the way [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] does.

For me, I guess the basic problem in this discussion is that I'm perfectly willing to admit that [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]'s approach is perfectly fine. I just wish folks would stop telling me how wrong I am for not adopting their approach and how if I just understood what they were trying to tell me, I'd switch right over. No. I do understand. I understand very well. I'm just not interested.
 

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Oofta

Legend
Out of chronological order'



Heh. The pedantic git in me needs to point out that a bakers dozen is, in fact, 144 words. :D yes, I know I have a disease. :p

Ummm ... it means 13. Unless it's a really generous baker. Are you thinking a gross?

I could have gotten away with far less but I didn't think "I get 13 investigation" would be wordy enough even though the group is standing in front of a weird door wondering what it was even though I would be fine with it.
 

Oofta

Legend
Why is it not applicable? Thieve's Tools per RAW come with a small mirror attached to a stick, the type of thing that could be placed under a door frame to see places you otherwise could not, or to reflect light into small spaces of the door.

Seems perfectly applicable to me.

It might be applicable in some cases I suppose - if the rogue has to see something they couldn't see normally as an example. But it's not called out as a use of the tool and I don't think it would be helpful very often unlike the eyes or a magnifying glass.

But unless it's an unusual situation they give no mechanical benefit any more than would a set of castanets.
 

Oofta

Legend
Back to the OP. I can see it now. The group has been hired by an insurance company to investigate a jewelry store heist. They're questioning the shopkeeper.

DM/shopkeeper "So I locked up the store as usual, set the normal traps and went upstairs to bed."
Player: "You sleep above the shop?"
DM/shopkeeper: "Yes, it's part of the compensation, and I'm single so it works well for me."
Player: "So no witness and you didn't hear anything at all during the night."
DM/shopkeeper: "No witnesses and no I didn't hear anything. But this building is very solidly built for a reason."
Player: "And there was no sign of forced entry, the traps were still set."
DM/shopkeeper: "That's right. In fact the traps are supposed to ward against magical entry as well."
Player: "I don't believe him, I think he's hiding something."
DM: "Okay."
Player: "Umm...can I get a read on him? An insight check?"
DM: "No."
Player: "What do you mean?"
DM: "The players don't get to ask to do skill checks. They declare action and intent."
Player: "So...I'm studying him closely looking for signs that he's being deceptive."
DM: "Okay"
Player: "So can I roll an insight check?"
DM: "No"
Player: "Why not? The PHB says I can use an insight check to try to determine their true intentions."
DM: "Because I didn't ask for an insight check."
Player: "What the f... okay. Mother may I have an insight check?"
DM: "No."
Player: "Dude, I have investigator as my background. I took Inquisitive Rogue so that I'd be particularly good at it. I have the Ear For Deceit feature and expertise in insight. This is kind of a big deal for me. Can I roll an insight check?"
DM: "No, asking for a check does not entitle you to a roll."

Is that seriously how this could go if the shopkeeper is telling the truth? Or lying for that matter, and you just don't think there's a reason to suspect the shopkeeper? Because honestly, I wouldn't want to play with a DM that did this.

Because in my game it would be
...skipping a few lines...
Player: "I don't believe him, I think he's hiding something."
DM: "Give me an insight check."
Player: "20"
or even
Player: "I don't believe him, I make an insight check of 20"

My response as DM is going to be something like: "He seems to be telling the truth."

And so on and so forth. Or maybe I'd reveal that the shopkeeper seemed nervous because to me the shopkeeper knows how bad this looks. Or maybe he's as cool as a cucumber and just really good at lying.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Back to the OP. I can see it now. The group has been hired by an insurance company to investigate a jewelry store heist. They're questioning the shopkeeper.

DM/shopkeeper "So I locked up the store as usual, set the normal traps and went upstairs to bed."
Player: "You sleep above the shop?"
DM/shopkeeper: "Yes, it's part of the compensation, and I'm single so it works well for me."
Player: "So no witness and you didn't hear anything at all during the night."
DM/shopkeeper: "No witnesses and no I didn't hear anything. But this building is very solidly built for a reason."
Player: "And there was no sign of forced entry, the traps were still set."
DM/shopkeeper: "That's right. In fact the traps are supposed to ward against magical entry as well."
Player: "I don't believe him, I think he's hiding something."
DM: "Okay."
Player: "Umm...can I get a read on him? An insight check?"
DM: "No."
Player: "What do you mean?"
DM: "The players don't get to ask to do skill checks. They declare action and intent."
Player: "So...I'm studying him closely looking for signs that he's being deceptive."
DM: "Okay"​
Full stop, right here. The player has stated an action with a goal and approach, the GM is now obligated to narrate the results of that action. If the GM decides there's no uncertainty, the GM still must narrate the outcome.

You continue to imagine the game stops because dice aren't rolled, which is wrong.

Player: "So can I roll an insight check?"
DM: "No"
Player: "Why not? The PHB says I can use an insight check to try to determine their true intentions."
DM: "Because I didn't ask for an insight check."
Player: "What the f... okay. Mother may I have an insight check?"
DM: "No."
Player: "Dude, I have investigator as my background. I took Inquisitive Rogue so that I'd be particularly good at it. I have the Ear For Deceit feature and expertise in insight. This is kind of a big deal for me. Can I roll an insight check?"
DM: "No, asking for a check does not entitle you to a roll."

Is that seriously how this could go if the shopkeeper is telling the truth? Or lying for that matter, and you just don't think there's a reason to suspect the shopkeeper? Because honestly, I wouldn't want to play with a DM that did this.
No, everything above would never happen because the GM either calls for a check and narrates the outcome or just narrates the outcome if it's certain.

Firstly, this situation wouldn't ever happen in my game because, as presented, it apoears as a social challenge so it would be in my game, but this example isn't. I don't have long question and answer periods with ambulatory exposition.

However, assuming it did, and the clerk isn't lying and there's no consequence for failure ("no answer" isn't a consequence), then I'd narrate that close attention during the exchange reveals the clerk is earnestly trying to help. If the clerk is lying, and I think the approach shoukd autofail (which I do not, I'd ask for a check in this situation with a consequence appropriate to the approach) I'd narrate that there's no indications in the clerk's body language that indicates falsehood.

Regardless, the argument you imagined would never, ever, happen.

Because in my game it would be
...skipping a few lines...
Player: "I don't believe him, I think he's hiding something."
DM: "Give me an insight check."
Player: "20"
or even
Player: "I don't believe him, I make an insight check of 20"

My response as DM is going to be something like: "He seems to be telling the truth."

And so on and so forth. Or maybe I'd reveal that the shopkeeper seemed nervous because to me the shopkeeper knows how bad this looks. Or maybe he's as cool as a cucumber and just really good at lying.
Cool, what happens on a failure when the ckerk isn't lying? If the clerk is lying? I, and ithers, have brought this up numerous times that there's a big difference in style on failure, but you keep only presenting success. What does failure look like in your game for this example?
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Oh goodie, we are writing mocking parodies of each others playstyles. I can’t wait to get to a real keyboard. I just love satire.
 

Oofta

Legend
Full stop, right here. The player has stated an action with a goal and approach, the GM is now obligated to narrate the results of that action. If the GM decides there's no uncertainty, the GM still must narrate the outcome.

You continue to imagine the game stops because dice aren't rolled, which is wrong.

No, everything above would never happen because the GM either calls for a check and narrates the outcome or just narrates the outcome if it's certain.

Firstly, this situation wouldn't ever happen in my game because, as presented, it apoears as a social challenge so it would be in my game, but this example isn't. I don't have long question and answer periods with ambulatory exposition.

However, assuming it did, and the clerk isn't lying and there's no consequence for failure ("no answer" isn't a consequence), then I'd narrate that close attention during the exchange reveals the clerk is earnestly trying to help. If the clerk is lying, and I think the approach shoukd autofail (which I do not, I'd ask for a check in this situation with a consequence appropriate to the approach) I'd narrate that there's no indications in the clerk's body language that indicates falsehood.

Regardless, the argument you imagined would never, ever, happen.


Cool, what happens on a failure when the ckerk isn't lying? If the clerk is lying? I, and ithers, have brought this up numerous times that there's a big difference in style on failure, but you keep only presenting success. What does failure look like in your game for this example?

First, this isn't a parody. I honestly want to understand what you would do. I still don't get why there couldn't be a dialog where the PCs are questioning the shopkeeper but since you refuse to give an example of what the dialog would look like I give up.

I don't want to put words into your mouth but since you refuse to give a concrete example, I'm assuming something like:

DM/shopkeeper "So I locked up the store as usual, set the normal traps and went upstairs to bed."
Player: "You sleep above the shop?"
DM/shopkeeper: "Yes, it's part of the compensation, and I'm single so it works well for me."
Player: "So no witness and you didn't hear anything at all during the night."
DM/shopkeeper: "No witnesses and no I didn't hear anything. But this building is very solidly built for a reason."
Player: "And there was no sign of forced entry, the traps were still set."
DM/shopkeeper: "That's right. In fact the traps are supposed to ward against magical entry as well."
Player: "I don't believe him, I think he's hiding something."
DM: "He's telling the truth"

This to me would ruin all the mystery of a who-dunnit like this. No thanks. The shopkeeper should be a primary suspect. The reason to ask for an insight check is to maintain that air of mystery and doubt. The shopkeeper is less likely to be involved, but there's no way to be certain.

And please don't bother responding if all you're going give me is more platitudes of "I would be such an amazing DM this could never occur" unless you can show how. This is an extremely simple scenario that is very typical of games I've played in or run. It shouldn't be hard. Assume it's a new player and this is the beginning of the session.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Full stop, right here. The player has stated an action with a goal and approach, the GM is now obligated to narrate the results of that action. If the GM decides there's no uncertainty, the GM still must narrate the outcome.

You continue to imagine the game stops because dice aren't rolled, which is wrong.

No, everything above would never happen because the GM either calls for a check and narrates the outcome or just narrates the outcome if it's certain.

Firstly, this situation wouldn't ever happen in my game because, as presented, it apoears as a social challenge so it would be in my game, but this example isn't. I don't have long question and answer periods with ambulatory exposition.

However, assuming it did, and the clerk isn't lying and there's no consequence for failure ("no answer" isn't a consequence), then I'd narrate that close attention during the exchange reveals the clerk is earnestly trying to help. If the clerk is lying, and I think the approach shoukd autofail (which I do not, I'd ask for a check in this situation with a consequence appropriate to the approach) I'd narrate that there's no indications in the clerk's body language that indicates falsehood.

Regardless, the argument you imagined would never, ever, happen.


Cool, what happens on a failure when the ckerk isn't lying? If the clerk is lying? I, and ithers, have brought this up numerous times that there's a big difference in style on failure, but you keep only presenting success. What does failure look like in your game for this example?
"Cool, what happens on a failure when the ckerk isn't lying? If the clerk is lying? I, and ithers, have brought this up numerous times that there's a big difference in style on failure, but you keep only presenting success. What does failure look like in your game for this example?"

In my game, one of two things happen on a failure to use insight to suss out a lie on a truthful speaker.

1 Failure - no progress - status quo - "As you gauge his responses, its unclear, no clear compelling signs of deception or honesty really shine through to change your mind or confirm your suspicions."

Seems easy right? Not getting to success meant you hot nothing to change your mind.

2 Failure - some progress with setback. "Ok, so, it's a mixed bag but it's pretty clear he is being truthful about some but and not about others. The way he reacts and talks and manners make it look like he is serious about being here that night, likely not being completely truthful about the traps being set and likely not giving you the whole story.

Also seems easy, right? Pick some of the account as ringing true, some not and leave further doubt sown as a way of giving some progress with setback.

In addition, it sets up a less binary scenario result. Is he lying about setting the traps or is he just wondering if he is remembering right? Is it doubt or outright deception? Or, is he being truthful to the questions asked, but there are other questions that need to be asked? Is the truth what he has said, plus the fact he had a lover over before that who he is keeping hidden?

But, to be fair, in my game, I work the quality of the die into the narration too, so if those were a natural 3 failure, I am likely to add more uncertainty into the mix (thus more likely no info narration as in number 1) than if it is a natural 12 failure (more likely described as number 2.) Muvh like I choose to narrate a roll of 2-fails on an attack roll as a wild miss but a roll of say 13-fail as a glancing blow, near miss or blocked by shield at last second.
 
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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Hrm, incorrect assertions like, for example, pixel bitching:

I mean, that, right there, is textbook example of pixel bitching. Why would a player even think of using a magnifying glass? One, the odds that a player actually would have one is pretty remote, and, two, even if you mention intricate carvings on the door, why would I not simply assume that I'm using a magnifying glass if I have one? You grant extra bonuses based on whether or not the player can guess the right kind of trap for the door and then present you with a solution that you find plausible.

In what way am I misrepresenting what you are doing. Because, that, right there, is pixel bitching and gaming the DM all rolled up in one nice neat package.

This is in no way an example of pixel-bitching. Pixel-bitching is when the DM provides only one solution to a problem and the players must find that solution to proceed.

A magnifying glass is right in the equipment list in the PHB. It confers advantage to ability checks related to examining small or highly detailed objects. So if the DM has described a door with highly-detailed carvings on it and you are interested in searching said door for traps, a magnifying glass is a good choice as it may give you a better chance of success. A player does not need to use a magnifying glass to solve anything about the door. He or she can just search for traps without one. Or open the door and walk right through (if it's unlocked, of course).

I will add, once again, that pixel-bitching is a feature of the "ignoring the dice" method mentioned in the DMG ("...the DM focuses on one 'correct' action that the characters must describe to overcome an obstacle"). We've already told you that we use the "middle path." So, yes, you're making incorrect assertions. Again.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Heh. The pedantic git in me needs to point out that a bakers dozen is, in fact, 144 words. :D yes, I know I have a disease. :p

The baker in me needs to point out that a baker's dozen is 13. It comes from arranging things on a sheet tray in alternating rows of 3 and 2 (3-2-3-2-3).
 

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