If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?

[iserith]

Yeah - I'm working on an adventure scenario right now, and it's much harder than it looks But I still think WotC (at least) should be trying to think about framing these challenges in a way that encourages creative thinking and not trip up DMs by documenting an assumed approach and DC and when the players try an obvious but different approach, leaving the DM to wonder why they bothered even writing that? I would much prefer they say something like "expertly disguised trap", or "hastily set trip wire", or something like that. Give us the flavor of the challenge, or the motivation(s) of the NPC (to pass onto the players) and let us worry about how to resolve the uncertainty. (And I guess it also assumes that there will be uncertainty, which again flies in the face of the PHB guidance, because a particular approach might eliminate all uncertainty, and their assumed approach cannot be the only one). There's a lot of useless fluff in the published adventures and not enough actionable information IMHO. I guess it makes for a more interesting read away from the table, but gets in the way when you actually try to run it.

That's probably enough on that digression!

Don't get me started. A vein pops out on my forehead when I see, for example, page space wasted on a tavern or town/village map and there's nothing of particular drama going on in those places. Like there's not a thousand such maps on the internet if the DM actually needs it.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Yeah - I'm working on an adventure scenario right now, and it's much harder than it looks But I still think WotC (at least) should be trying to think about framing these challenges in a way that encourages creative thinking and not trip up DMs by documenting an assumed approach and DC and when the players try an obvious but different approach, leaving the DM to wonder why they bothered even writing that? I would much prefer they say something like "expertly disguised trap", or "hastily set trip wire", or something like that. Give us the flavor of the challenge, or the motivation(s) of the NPC (to pass onto the players) and let us worry about how to resolve the uncertainty. (And I guess it also assumes that there will be uncertainty, which again flies in the face of the PHB guidance, because a particular approach might eliminate all uncertainty, and their assumed approach cannot be the only one). There's a lot of useless fluff in the published adventures and not enough actionable information IMHO. I guess it makes for a more interesting read away from the table, but gets in the way when you actually try to run it.

That's probably enough on that digression!

No, I think this thread could use a good redirect.

And I totally agree with what you wrote above, neatly summarized in the part I bolded. So many times I get to something and think, "Ok, but my players totally didn't do what you thought they would...now what?" It's ok, I guess, I improvise, but it's still kind of annoying.

The basic problem is that in trying to avoid linear dungeon crawls and move more toward the "sandbox" that some people are demanding, they create chapter after chapter of complicated plots with lots of moving parts, but they still expect the whole thing to fit in 156 pages (or whatever it is).

 

[robus]

Here's my favorite: The north wall has a secret door. DC 15 Wisdom (perception) (or investigation) to detect it. No description of what the tell tale sign of the secret door is, just it's there. Instead of telling my the DC, tell me what clues I can give to my players so that they have a chance of finding (or suspecting) its presence! The room is interesting so give them some interesting stuff to chew on!

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Here's my favorite: The north wall has a secret door. DC 15 Wisdom (perception) (or investigation) to detect it. No description of what the tell tale sign of the secret door is, just it's there. Instead of telling my the DC, tell me what clues I can give to my players so that they have a chance of finding (or suspecting) its presence! The room is interesting so give them some interesting stuff to chew on!

You mean like: "The north wall has a secret door. Spicy axebeak jerky dangles in the shadows just above it." ?

 

[iserith]

You mean like: "The north wall has a secret door. Spicy axebeak jerky dangles in the shadows just above it." ?

"Tordek, don't eat that yet! We don't know if it was made in a facility that process wheat, milk, eggs, or tree nuts. I cast detect gluten."

 

[Hussar]

Ok...ehem...I'm at a keyboard. Here's my understanding of the "it's all about character skill" approach:

DM: "In front of you is a door, looks like oak with metal strap hinges, riveted on. There's a pull ring in the center."

Rogue: "Hmmm...we found that poison lab. I'm going to carefully inspect that pull ring to see if there's any foreign substance on it. I'll look from different angles, and maybe sniff the air. Oh, and I'll cut off a piece of that cultist cloak I found and carefully wipe the pull ring to see if anything comes off. I have proficiency in Poisoner's Kit so I should know how to do this safely."

DM: "Roll Investigation."

Rogue: "Hmm...11."

DM: "Nope, seems clean."

Rogue: "Ok, I'm going to pull the door open."

DM: "It has contact poison on it; roll a save versus Constitution."

Rogue: "What? I looked for contact poison!"

DM: "Yeah but the DC was 12; you just missed."

Rogue: "Wait a sec...it was only a 12 DC, but an 8th level rogue with Poisoner's Kit proficiency specifically looking for contact poison in the right place didn't find it?"

DM: "Not if you fail the roll. Maybe you looked on the wrong part of the pull ring."

A while later...

DM: "Ok, you come across another door, this one looks like..."

Rogue (interrupting, in a resigned voice): "...I roll Investigation looking for traps...14"

DM: "Nothing."

Cleric: "I'll roll, too...12, darn."

Wizard: "I got a 17..."

DM: "Nope"

Fighter: "Nat 20! So, um, 19."

DM: "YOU find the trap! Congratulations! Ok, who is going to roll to disarm it?"



Oh, the fun to be had. I'm just giddy with anticipation.

Far, far preferable to the pixel bitching hoops I need to jump through in order to find and disarm a trap. Hey, whatever you find fun. Me? A simple trap on a door is a thirty second speed bump. Throw some dice at it and move on. Oh wait, I looked at the first trap, but, I forgot to mention that I was using a piece of a cloth to wipe for poison? Guess I get to make saving throws against poison now. I didn't specificy exactly the right words to find the trap.

No thanks.

 

[Charlaquin]

It's a bit of a mixed bag in my experience. Sometimes it spells out the approach pretty well, but many times it is just implied. I will say that when I write up some of my short-form scenarios without DCs, it takes more words to describe my intent. So this may simply be a way to save page space. As well, module writers are not immune to legacy thinking.

I think it would go a long way to mention additional details that can be discerned with certain passive Wisdom (Perception) scores, and to use the easy/medium/hard/very hard scale in place of DCs. For example:

“There is a secret door in the north wall. Characters with passive Wisdom (Perception) 12 or higher notice a slight difference in the air quality in this room. Players with passive Wisdom (Perception) 15 or higher can tell that the draft flows from north to south. The door is disguised to resemble the natural stone of the north wall, making it very hard to identify by sight, but the faux stone is easy to discern from real stone by touch.”

In a sense its just longhand for the DC, but I think “such and such can be found easily” or “it is very had to blablah” can subtly put the DM in a different mindset than “there is a hidden door (DC 15).”

 

[Hussar]

Here's my favorite: The north wall has a secret door. DC 15 Wisdom (perception) (or investigation) to detect it. No description of what the tell tale sign of the secret door is, just it's there. Instead of telling my the DC, tell me what clues I can give to my players so that they have a chance of finding (or suspecting) its presence! The room is interesting so give them some interesting stuff to chew on!

Fantastic stuff. Give me more please. You all are apparently super creative DM's, you can faff about figuring out how this secret door works. Knock yourselves out. To me, it's what's on the other side of the door that's important. The door itself? Could really, really not care less.

You want more of this kind of cruft in modules? No thanks. Gimme "Secret Door DC X to discover" every time.

 

[Hussar]

“There is a secret door in the north wall. Characters with passive Wisdom (Perception) 12
or higher notice a slight difference in the air quality in this room. Players with passive Wisdom (Perception) 15 or higher can tell that the draft flows from north to south. The door is disguised to resemble the natural stone of the north wall, making it almost impossible to identify by sight, but the faux stone is easy to discern from real stone by touch.”

Yes, because players routinely announce they are touching random wall sections of a dungeon for no reason? And, telling me that there is a draft in the room is going to be a clue to find a secret door? Yeah, again, no thanks. I'd just as easily assume poltergeists, or any number of a hundred other things that a draft could be, including nothing at all.

I'm really, really glad you folks don't write for WotC.

 

[iserith]

Far, far preferable to the pixel bitching hoops I need to jump through in order to find and disarm a trap.

It's bad form to have been corrected on what "pixel-bitching" is very clearly (which you can verify with a Google search), then continue to use the wrong definition in subsequent posts to erroneously attribute it to how other people play.

I can think of 144 reasons not to do this - you know, a baker's dozen.