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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Umm ... forums are sometimes a horrible way to communicate ideas and concepts?

I have no issue with people having different styles of play. I can only do my best to explain the way I run games I do and why. I take what I consider a "middle of the road approach".

I'll just reiterate one of my first postings on this topic. I don't get why this is such a big deal. The biggest difference is that I don't use the "ignore the dice" approach when it comes to some obstacles such as handling simple traps. I allow people to declare their action and intent as a skill check. They're even allowed to roll and give me the number. If it's not clear what they're trying to accomplish I'll ask.

That's all. It's what works for me. If I misunderstood what you were trying to say I apologize.
Just so you know, the bolded section is why you keep getting people insisting that you don’t understand their style. You keep saying that you don’t understand it, and we, in an attempt at good faith discussion, take your word for it and explain why it’s a big deal to us. Then instead of saying “ok, that’s not a big deal to me, but I can see why it is to you,” you argue against the reasons we give for why it’s a big deal to us.

I really don’t care if it’s a big deal to you. If you want to know why it’s a big deal to me, I’ll do my best to explain it. When I do so, I am not trying to convince you that you should think it’s a big deal, I don’t care whether or not you think it’s a big deal. I am only telling you the reasons it’s a big deal to me, because you asked me to.
 

Satyrn

Villager
What? You don't want yet another 2,000 comment thread about the minuscule yet VERY IMPORTANT differences between DMs that do things one way, and DMs that do things another way?

I mean, it's kept me off the streets, selling my body for ambien!
No, i don't really want another thread like that . . . unless there's a Realism subplot. Then I'm all in. I've got so many jokes on the topic, but Max and Lanefan were the only ones in that thread who were laughing along, I'm saving the jokes for a bigger audience.
 

lowkey13

Exterminate all rational thought
No, i don't really want another thread like that . . . unless there's a Realism subplot. Then I'm all in. I've got so many jokes on the topic, but Max and Lanefan were the only ones in that thread who were laughing along, I'm saving the jokes for a bigger audience.
I'm only in if we can work in surrealism next time.

I mean, sure, some DMs are all about TTRPGs and realism, but when was the last time you stanned for surrealism?

A few brief words are necessary to insure that the reader has actually obtained a game form which he or she desires. Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the surrealism school and the other as the game/simulation school.

AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the former school. It does not stress any fun (in the author’s opinion an absurd effort at best considering the topic and the subjective nature of fun!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is first and foremost a game of surrealism.

This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the absurdities and non-sequiturs that some consideration of "fun" hasn't been attempted, but neither is a randomly annoying approach to play discouraged. In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be a bizarre and thought-provoking pastime, something which can fill a few hours or send you to endless days of medical supervision in the local asylum.

For surrealism, AD&D is unsurpassed. For fun and excitement, as a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the latter must search elsewhere.

SAMPLE TABLE:

Mime encounters can be with dead rail stations or lively ocean currents, thus making it difficult for the party to distinguish each encounter for what it is. (In fact, the encounter could be with a sublimely drunk volcano only belching itself as a mime, a clown, or even a deflated dirigible.) You may find it useful to use the sub-table below to see which sort of mime encounter takes place:

00 – 10 Damaged king dog
11 – 25 Melting cloud
26 – 35 Fresh cheese
36 – 50 Typical non-mime
51 – 65 Saucy tart
66 – 75 Control images
76 – 85 Oblique addicted regret
86 – 90 Arithmetic shift
91 – 92 Nobler bean concussion
93 – 94 Reality studio
95 – 98 Soft machine
99 – 00 The big holder
 
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DM Dave1

Explorer
I'm only in if we can work in surrealism next time.

I mean, sure, some DMs are all about TTRPGs and realism, but when was the last time you stanned for surrealism?

A few brief words are necessary to insure that the reader has actually obtained a game form which he or she desires. Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the surrealism school and the other as the game school.

AD&D is assuredly on adherent of the former school. It does not stress any fun (in the author’s opinion an absurd effort at best considering the topic and the subjective nature of fun!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is first and foremost a game of surrealism.

This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the absurdities and non-sequiturs that some consideration of "fun" hasn't been attempted, but neither is a randomly annoying approach to play discouraged. In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be a bizarre and thought-provoking pastime, something which can fill a few hours or send you to endless days of medical supervision in the local asylum.

For surrealism, AD&D is unsurpassed. For fun and excitement, as a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the latter must search elsewhere.

SAMPLE TABLE:

Mime encounters can be with dead rail stations or lively ocean currents, thus making it difficult for the party to distinguish each encounter for what it is. (In fact, the encounter could be with a sublimely drunk volcano only belching itself as a mime, a clown, or even a deflated dirigible.) You may find it useful to use the sub-table below to see which sort of mime encounter takes place:

00 – 10 Damaged king dog
11 – 25 Melting cloud
26 – 35 Fresh cheese
36 – 50 Typical non-mime
51 – 65 Saucy tart
66 – 75 Control images
76 – 85 Oblique addicted regret
86 – 90 Arithmetic shift
91 – 92 Nobler bean concussion
93 – 94 Reality studio
95 – 98 Soft machine
99 – 00 The big holder
I roll Insight, 18. Truth! How many tarts can I fit in my backpack?
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
I'm only in if we can work in surrealism next time.

I mean, sure, some DMs are all about TTRPGs and realism, but when was the last time you stanned for surrealism?
The last campaign I was in had multiple sessions set in "The Dreaming" so, just last year, I guess.

I have to ask... the connection between 'Realism' and 'immersion' is obvious. What'd be the corresponding player-state that'd be the crowning, tenuous, achievement of Surrealism?
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
The last campaign I was in had multiple sessions set in "The Dreaming" so, just last year, I guess.

I have to ask... the connection between 'Realism' and 'immersion' is obvious. What'd be the corresponding player-state that'd be the crowning, tenuous, achievement of Surrealism?
"Enlightenment" :D
 

lowkey13

Exterminate all rational thought
The last campaign I was in had multiple sessions set in "The Dreaming" so, just last year, I guess.

I have to ask... the connection between 'Realism' and 'immersion' is obvious. What'd be the corresponding player-state that'd be the crowning, tenuous, achievement of Surrealism?
The players would be squatting on old bones and excrement and rusty iron, in a white blaze of heat, a panorama of naked idiots stretching to the horizon. Complete silence - their speech centers are destroyed - except for the crackle of sparks and the popping of singed flesh as they apply electrodes up and down the spine. White smoke of burning flesh hangs in the motionless air, as the flesh jerks in the fire with insect agony.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
The players would be squatting on old bones and excrement and rusty iron, in a white blaze of heat, a panorama of naked idiots stretching to the horizon. Complete silence - their speech centers are destroyed - except for the crackle of sparks and the popping of singed flesh as they apply electrodes up and down the spine. White smoke of burning flesh hangs in the motionless air, as the flesh jerks in the fire with insect agony.
Have you been re-reading The Naked Lunch?
 

lowkey13

Exterminate all rational thought
Have you been re-reading The Naked Lunch?
Re-reading?

To paraphrase the great American patriot and poet, Willie Nelson:

Maybe I didn't read you
Quite as often as I could have
And maybe I didn't quote you
Quite as good as I should have
If I made you feel second best
Bill Burroughs, I'm sorry I was blind

Naked Lunch was always on my mind
Naked Lunch was always on my mind


....


But to also quote the great Willie Nelson, "Quick, better smoke up all the weed before the IRS gets here."
 

5ekyu

Explorer
And even if you do care about the meta-knowledge thing (which I don't, just in case I haven't made that abundantly and redundantly clear), why would you want to intentionally give the players more information their characters don't have?

Every time you call for a Perception check and the player fails and you just keep moving, you are just expanding the disconnect, the gulf, between player knowledge and character knowledge.

I can totally understand a sheepish, "Yeah, I do that, too, out of habit. I'd like to stop." What I find completely bafflingly perplexing is, "What's wrong with that?"
"And even if you do care about the meta-knowledge thing (which I don't, just in case I haven't made that abundantly and redundantly clear), why would you want to intentionally give the players more information their characters don't have? "

Because the other options are worse, to us and our game play.

There are a gazillion ways one PC can get info the others dont. Various senses, traits and activities would include languages, darkvision, blindsight, scouting ahead, scrying, divinations, personal knowledge etc. They are fairly obvious to settings snd fiction and can come up even by player choices, not just setting, so just saying "we dont allow them in our games" isnt really a preferential option we even vonsidered.

When those moments hit in game and in situations where it matters there are three basic and obvioys ways to do this.

1 play thru at the table and others hear the info as players but then choose to not use it in character until they get an opportunity for "I tell you..."

This if frankly our norm. Has been for as long as I can remember and it's not some torture or burden. It's not something we give mock awards to or really think anything of. It's the roleplaying equivalent to us of "tie your shoes" not exceptional at all.

2 separate folks by going outsidr, whispers, passing notes, emails texts etc. Basically keep the other players in the dark. This is rarely done by us as it's too much sn interruption. We sometimes see it in other games - Mercer does it eith whispers snd notes on CR. But it rarely occurs in our play outside of downtime stuff with emails (rarely). So we just ho eith the easy "just ignore it til the info dump" and dont interrupt play.

3 decide player and character knowledge are the same so when s pc scouts snd gets KOed your character knows the exact details even if not there? If domronecehispers sn offer in draconuc to the lizard man zpC all the other players know what was said and can use it in character.

3 is not an option we go in for. I can see how it can really help if your players have issues with separating PC and player knowledge but we dont have that to contend with.

Sure, there are likely more options than these basic three tent poles but we found an easy spot that works well for us.

But, I imagine choices to go to GAP and things like "meta-knowledge is ok" and the like are very much driven by what issues and problems and preferences a given table has seen in play. Certainly, if we kept hitting problems with players not separating knowledge as a matter of course or not knowing what the various ability scores represented in terms of applying to actions in play we would be looking at #2, #3, GAP or other styles more closely.
 

Chaosmancer

Villager
Re-reading?

To paraphrase the great American patriot and poet, Willie Nelson:

Maybe I didn't read you
Quite as often as I could have
And maybe I didn't quote you
Quite as good as I should have
If I made you feel second best
Bill Burroughs, I'm sorry I was blind

Naked Lunch was always on my mind
Naked Lunch was always on my mind


....


But to also quote the great Willie Nelson, "Quick, better smoke up all the weed before the IRS gets here."
One of these days I'm going to let down my guard and decide that reading that "book" is a good idea.

I fear for the aftermath, but I'm sure it will happen.
 

Elfcrusher

Explorer

Perhaps you haven't realized - if you keep working your way to publicly admitting you were knowingly and actively dumping disrespect on people, I will have to act on that beyond waggling a metaphorical finger.

Do you want to keep arguing with me, or do you want to take this as a warning that you probably want to be less disrespectful going forward? Your call.
I roll Insight!

Drek....I got a 3. Guess I’ll have to roleplay arguing, even though I really don’t want to.
 

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