D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[mamba]

In multiple D&D settings, worship is what grants God's the their power. How is it "spouting nonsense" to take that to it's logical conclusion (that worship grants power, and that by believing in yourself enough, you can gain divine magic).

what about believing in an idea then? Also, one person believing in a god is not sufficient to ‘power’ that god, so one person believing in themselves is not either. Finally a god is a very different thing from a person, so even if gods can be powered that way, that does not imply that mortals can

Also, why is that only true for cleric-adjacent classes, then anyone should be able to just believe hard enough to do basically anything

 

[Voadam]

Longer if you count Dark Sun and Planescape.

Complete Priest's Handbook with full on non deity spellcasting specialty priests was 1990 and preceded both Dark Sun and Planescape.

"In the AD&D game, the God, Force, and Philosophy are identical in the way they are treated by the game mechanics. All three provide spells and powers to their priests. All three demand personal requirements and services of their priests and of their non-priest followers. And all three, to a lesser or greater degree, shape the world, both through their own powers and through their agents, the priests."

I think by core he means PH though.

Oe cleric class description did not mention gods, just Law and Chaos.

Clerics: Clerics gain some of the advantages from both of the other two classes (Fighting-Men and Magic-Users) in that they have the use of magic armor and all non-edged magic weapons (no arrows!), plus they have numbers of their own spells. In addition, they are able to use more of the magical items than are the Fighting-Men. When Clerics reach the top level (Patriarch) they may opt to build their own stronghold, and when doing so receive help from “above.” Thus, if they spend 100,000 Gold Pieces in castle construction, they may build a fortress of double that cost. Finally, “faithful” men will come to such a castle, being fanatically loyal, and they will serve at no cost. There will be from 10–60 heavy cavalry, 10–60 horsed crossbowmen (“Turcopole”-type), and 30–180 heavy foot.
Note that Clerics of 7th level and greater are either “Law” or “Chaos,” and there is a sharp distinction between them. If a Patriarch receiving the above benefits changes sides, all the benefits will immediately be removed!
Clerics with castles of their own will have control of a territory similar to the “Barony” of fighters, and they will receive “tithes” equal to 20 Gold Pieces/Inhabitant/year.

Doing a search for "gods" or "deit" on the OE first PDF I don't get any hits at all.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

what about believing in an idea then?

There are many examples throughout history of people/ideologies having fanatical beliefs in philosophies/societal systems that have nothing to do with religion. Imagine someone so devoted in a political party, philosophy, economic system that they make their whole personality revolve around it. This isn't new to D&D.

Also, one person believing in a god is not sufficient to ‘power’ that god, so one person believing in themselves is not either.

Which is why they just get the powers of a Cleric, and don't gain the full powers of a god.

Finally a god is a very different thing from a person, so even if gods can be powered that way, that does not imply that mortals can

D&D gods often act like people, and frequently used to be them. There are many examples from D&D of mortal people apotheosizing through the worship of others.

 

[mamba]

There are many examples throughout history of people/ideologies having fanatical beliefs in philosophies/societal systems that have nothing to do with religion.

sure, but them gaining supernatural powers through that belief… not so much

If you want to play a delusional char with no powers, be my guest…

D&D gods often act like people, and frequently used to be them. There are many examples from D&D of mortal people apotheosizing through the worship of others.

it takes a ‘bit’ more than them believing in themselves however, even in the cases where they do it by themselves, without any worshippers

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

sure, but them gaining supernatural powers through that belief… not so much

If you want to play a delusional char with no powers, be my guest…

Because people don't gain magic from belief in the real world. They do in several D&D settings.

it takes a ‘bit’ more than them believing in themselves however

Which is why just having belief in yourself would grant you cleric magic, IMO, and not full godhood. Convincing enough other people to worship you that you become a full god is a different matter.

 

[mamba]

Because people don't gain magic from belief in the real world. They do in several D&D settings

I am not arguing that they aren’t in D&D, I am arguing they shouldn’t, at least not in the PHB

If you have a setting where this is making sense, go for it.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I am not arguing that they aren’t in D&D, I am arguing they shouldn’t, at least not in the PHB

If you have a setting where this is making sense, go for it.

It makes sense in Eberron, Planescape, Ravnica, Theros, Strixhaven, and quite a few other D&D settings. I would argue that it's such a basic concept that having a sidebar discussing it in the PHB/DMG makes sense, as it's broadly applicable. But any way, it's not a big deal. I've never played/DMed for one of these clerics or paladins. I just like that it's an option.

 

[cranberry]

Sure, if the rules allow it, you can gain powers solely by faith in yourself or an idea, or love, etc.

But I believe (pun intended) the underlying issue, is that taking deities (or other powerful supernatural beings) with expectations regarding your behavior, duties, or obligations out of the equation, is just one more thing that makes D&D too easy.


(run-on sentences are underrated, btw )

 

[Vaalingrade]

'Annoying' is not a difficulty setting.

 

[mamba]

It makes sense in Eberron, Planescape, Ravnica, Theros, Strixhaven, and quite a few other D&D settings.

Does it, I would like an explanation for that... I notice there are a lot of MtG settings here, know too little about them but Theros is ancient Greece / Rome, don't see why that should be a thing there, Strixhaven is a school for mages, that sounds even less like it belongs there.

I can maybe see Planescape, because it is full of weirdness by design