If most DMs prefer low-mid levels...why have levels?

Because:

-> When you start at level 1, reaching mid-high levels is an achievement that makes playing there even more fun, since you know you deserve it
-> When you go on, the players can demonstrate their skill at solving problems and defeating their favorite opponents without much strain, and then get to realize they're still not out of the frying pan.
 

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I am going to interpret your statement as having the characters possess only a static set of powers and abilities, with no advancement.

There is actually no specific reason not to run campaigns with static characters. Such games can indeed be entertaining. But there are a few drawbacks.

- Games will get boring, since after a while, you will run out of opponents you can reasonably use. And long before than, your party will just get bored with their static characters that can only do things they have done already.

- It can strain credibility. Lets say you have a static party is challenged by a handful of Ogres, and you want to have a very dangerous lich face the party. Its hard to sell the lich as dangerous if its total combat ability is not that much worse than a hand full of Ogres

- If the party is static, You cannot really give them much in the way of reward for a job well done.

Also, I think I can say with some accuracy why DM's prefer low level games.

Not all campaigns run for 14 years. Games often fall apart, and most campaigns just do not run that long. When DM needs to restart the campaign, he will usually do it from 1st level. This tends to make DM's very familiar with low level adventuring.

But when a game gets to higher levels, it gets harder to run the game very well. Most DM's will know the low level beasties quite well, but they wont be as familiar with CR 10 monsters. Statting out a 1st level Rogue is easy. But statting out a Char level 10 Rogue can be a bit harder, since you have to account for the stat increases and figure out appropriate magic items for them. For Fighters, the feat list is impressive, and for Clerics and Wizards, there are that many more spells to work with. And it gets even harder if you want to multi-class the character. Its not easy to just throw together a Ftr 4 Rog 4 Duellist 2.

Another factor is that alot of DM's will get caught off guard when the party, at about levels 5 through 7, start tearing through encounters using the kinds of monsters he likes. Even if the DM thinks he has made the encounter level appropriate. There is a certain point in that level range where the party's total power level suddenly spikes. Fighters start getting iterative attacks, Rogues are scoring 3d6 extra damage on a sneak attack, and Wizards are lobbing around the Fireballs. This can make fights that the DM expected to be difficult suddenly a great deal easier.

And the other part is that the game can also seem to slow down in general. People will start having to look up rules for things they just dont know. At 1st level, not many players will bother with a Disarm or Trip. But at level 5 or 6, it makes sense, because your going to be going up against opponents that simply dont fall down in 1 hit. The DM will also be using monsters that are more complicated then Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, and the like, which is yet more stuff to look up.

The last thing I suppose is that at low levels, character death for the players may not be a big deal. Rolling a new one is pretty easy. But f you need to roll a higher level character to replace a casualty, as noted for NPC's, its more time consuming. And if a player decides to go for an entirely new type of character, he can introduce many new rules or abilities that the DM is unfamiliar with. And this will drive a DM nuts.

Running a higher level game is quite simply a great deal more work. But I am also convinced that if more DM's stuck it out and ran games of that level range, that they would become comfortable with the unfamiliar material.

END COMMUNICATION
 

seans23 said:
I've been in a campaign that's lasted for almost 3 years... we're now level 16-17. I'd be disappointed if we didn't make it to 20.


I've been DMing a different campaign for a little over 2 years. They're at level 10-12. But there's been lots of death. I doubt we'll get to level 20. Hell, I'm just hoping we actually finish RTTTOEE.

QFT.

The first GM i had that tried to do a 1-20 campaign tried to do it in a college game, with 15 :confused: players. He got up to lvl 16 (arbitrarily, sometimes leveling us up twice in a session), and then went completely insane, and just tossed a CR 30 undead god-child at us that wanted to undo all of existence.

Existence was undone.

The second GM who tried it was a dramaticist. We made it up to level 8, then I was thrown out of the group (inter-party conflict, due in no small part to the GM telling me that my monk had an alignment drift to "neutral", and that i lost all monk abilities, and then giving me a cursed belt of the monk that gave me -4 monk levels)... and it fell apart two sessions later. The big bad was an immortal epic-level sorceress... and our patron was an immortal epic-level sorceress. and they were... IDENTICAL TWINS. On several occasions, one would show up and give us orders. Neither detected as evil, i suspect they were both neutral. Blah.
 


Gundark said:
If most DMs prefer lower power adventures then......why bother having levels to begin with?

Well, the first answer that comes to mind is - because the DM is hardly the only person at the table. What the players want matters too.

The second answer is that just because most DMs want a thing, doesn't mean other stuff shouldn't be an option. It isn't as if cutting off a campaign at a lower level is somehow technically difficult.

I am sure there are other answers as well.
 

So, are people suggesting that some DMs dangle the higher levels in front of the players like the proverbial carrot on a stick that keeps the donkey moving foward in a vain attempt to reach it?

That doesn't sound very nice.
 

In my experience most other games start you at a level more capable than D&D's 1st level & have much slower advancement. If I were to ever (finish) designing my own system, I'd likely do the same. (If I had advancement at all.)

I've said before that I'd find it appealing to play in a campaign in which levels were granted--not based on XP--but once a year. It'd be nice to really take the time to really know each level. As it is, I often find I'm leveling up again before I've really had a chance to explore what I got from the last level.

On the other hand, though, there's too much on my gaming to-do list & much too little time to do it. So, I doubt that'll ever happen. (^_^)
 

A havin' levels be after makin' the Dungeon Masters job a wee bit easier.

There be games where the player characters be a gettin' better, but the scurvy dogs they be a battlin' ne'er get a hair better. Levels allow the scum to rise to the top o' the keg along wi' the bloody 'eroes. (The game what rises to me eye is Storyteller, where iffen ye go w' the rules as they be writ ye keep the same antagonists throughout the carrers o' them prancin' angsty 'eroes.)

Aye, and there be folks who are after likin' the higher le'els too.

The Auld Grump
 

Because D&D has always had levels. Specifically, it has always had very choppy advancement compared to, well... pretty much everything other than D&D.

'Levels' don't really have anything to do with the problem, insofar as it is a problem. Wild ARMs 4 theoretically goes up to 100 levels, but the characters gain less power in the 50 they're likely to have by the end of a typical playthrough than most D&D characters do in 2-3 levels; the vast majority of console RPGs stretch something like D&D's 20 levels over 100 or even 255. For a pen and paper RPG example, Spycraft levels have almost no effect on the tone or style of the game because challenges scale with level and there's no high-level magic and magic items to completely alter the nature of the game.

By and large, if GMs and players who prefered the 'sweet spot' of 5-12 and a flatter power curve would just try other systems, they'd probably be a lot happier. For whatever reason, they don't, and either tolerate the way it is or work out massive amounts of houserules to rework D&D until... it looks a lot like all the other rules-medium to rules-heavy RPGs when it comes to character advancement.

Since D&D is the only RPG that provides D&D, I'd really rather it didn't change - but I do wish players and GMs who don't actually seem to like anything about D&D other than the name would try the myriad systems that do exactly what they're trying to do from the outset. Converting the entire Monster Manual would be less work than trying to make D&D hand out incremental advances... :\
 

Interesting replies.

I agreee that the DM isn't the only one at the table, and that the players want to have the feeling that their characters are progressing. However I wasn't suggesting that there be no progression, or even slower progression, just progression that impacts less on overall character abilities.

The same players that play D&D also play and probably enjoy just as much more front loaded systems. So I don't know how much I buy into the "levels are for the players" idea.

Another arguement is "because D&D has levels" , okay...but shouldn't the game evolve into a better smoother system? (Then again whose to say that levels > front loaded games)

It seems to be rare to have a game progress far into higher levels. It's never happened for me (however I hope to with my current AoW game). I'd say that those who have hit the magic level of 20 are in the minority rather than the majority. I heard that just before 3rd ed. WotC did a survey and found that the average campaign lasted 1 - 1.5 years (maybe I'm misquoting) i'll bet that even then many of those groups hadn't hit 20. Maybe their would be less dissappointment at a game without levels ending (ie. no "ugh we didn't hit 20th level").

A question is..is game prep faster in level-less systems?

I don't know I guess i'm rambling.

PS. As I said in the OP I don't have issues with D&D having levels, just interested in the discussion.
 

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