If our Hobby has a problem, it is the difficulty of interpersonal communcation.

[StupidSmurf]

Interesting thread....

Funny, of late I had asked my wife why it seems that so many gamers I've known are flaming arse-holes? I mean, does the game attract them or something, and is it related to the ability (or lack thereof) to communicate in a civil fashion with others? Because for every story I can tell about someone really cool and nice that I met via roleplaying, I have an ugly story about someone who was really over the top horrible.

Here are my opinions on the matter and reactions to what I've read here. I realize that some of them are generalizations, so please bear with me:

1. I think RPGs as a rule tend to attract opinionated, stubborn, contrary folks who possess at least half a brain. In esssence, people who like to think outside the box, or act outside the box, or at least aren't crazy about conforming.

1A. Now that I think of it, I can't think of any gamers I've played with who were "not too bright" and who ended up staying with the game for an extended period of time.

2. In order to have an effective RPG session, there ideally needs to be a certain amount of conformity (within context of the game), and definitely some checking of egos at the door. Note the use of the word "ideally". When it doesn't happen, problems can result. Try telling a bunch of non-conformists to conform. Hah.

3. Let's face it...we're engaged in a hobby where the purpose is to pretend we're someone else, in a situation removed from reality. It's escapism, but it goes beyond the average idea of escapist fare in our society, which usually involves going to movies or reading a book. For a lot of people, those average ideas are enough....we take it a step further, and that alarms a lot of people. Most people believe that "Let's pretend" is something you stop doing when you're a kid, right up there with sucking your thumb, believing in Santa, and wetting your pants. Roleplaying is "Let's pretend" on steroids.

4. A companion thought to #3....society in general will tolerate, even approve, of people who are fanatics in certain areas of entertainment. Sports fans, for instance. Movie buffs, kind of, yeah. Golf fanatics, sure. But roleplaying? Whoa...watch out there. Get the so-called experts and criminal psychologists online, B.A....it's those Satan-worshipping, heavy metal-listening, sword-waving, soap-avoiding, furry-boinking weirdos! Hide the kids! And sadly, not many people are willing to try it out for themselves (see point 3), and learn otherwise. Their minds are already made up.

5. Oh, and the whole concept that we gamers are somehow brighter than the so-called common man is so much horsecrap.

6. The problem with people who are headstrong, outside-the-box, unconventional, non-conformists is that certain things sometimes tend to fall by the wayside. Things such as manners....or the ability to swallow the ego and compromise...or personal hygeine. AGAIN, this is not all RPers...heck it's not even the majority...but there sure seems to be an alarming proportion of them anyhow. In fact, since I started gaming, I've had to learn a whole nifty set of new phrases. A sample:

- Stop staring at my daughter's cleavage or I'll have to kill you.
- Stop trying to give my wife a backrub or I'll have to kill you.
- Please put your shirt back on.
- Please RSVP a party invitation that's sent to you.
- Please use a plate or bowl for those chips.
- Please do not wipe your chip-greased fingers on the sofa.
- Please put your shoes back on.
- Please take your feet off the coffee table...and put your shoes back on.
- Yell at my children again and you die.
- Before you try giving us any more unsolicited advice on how to deal with children, I suggest you go out and have your own. On second thought, considering the kind of person you are, please don't breed.
- Why are you shouting so loudly? We're in my living room and you're sitting next to me.
- I don't care that the Bludgeons and Flagons game system handles tavern combat better than D&D. This game is D&D, that's what we're playing, and could we please get back to the encounter wherein the party is about to get wiped out by that red dragon's breath?
- I am sorry that you don't like how I run the game. This is how I've always run it, people like it, and you already knew going into it how I ran things. I cannot alter my style to perfectly fit every single person's preference, since every single person has a different ideal, and we have ten people. This is how we do it, and it causes the least friction. If you don't like it, perhaps I'm simply not the DM for you. (Note: I've lost a few players with this one...no big loss either)

So, in essence, we play a socially misunderstood hobby, usually with a bunch of people who are opinionated, headstrong, and not afraid to speak their minds. Wow. There's a volatile situation for ya.

 

[DrNilesCrane]

Edena, interesting posts & interesting responses. I definitely agree with Umbran's post (creativity unchanneled doesn't make for a enjoyable evening of gaming for most groups). I don't think there is a magical something to help the hobby & in a sense, I don't think the hobby or the rules (such as the archtypes of the core classes) themselves are a problem.

The game is reliant on the social skills of the players, which means getting a group of at least two (and more likely 4 or 5) people together who can not just communicate reasonably well, but are willing to share the spotlight, cooperate at least as players, and check their personal issues and egos at the door -- plus you need a DM who can do all of this in spades, knows the rules well, has time to prepare...whew... It's a tall order to fill. I think unfortunately a lot of groups don't think that part of the equation through: many groups I've seen are of the "hey, show up and bring a friend - we'll play!" variety (and end up with mismatched personalities, wasted evenings, etc.). The most successful groups I've been a part of in my experience are created, with one person seving as anchor and bringing together a group based on the player's personalities and commitment to the game.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people who might really flourish in a D&D game, people who might not never think of even trying role-playing or expanding their creativity, are turned away by the kind of behavior of some players StupidSmurf has outlined. Even worse, the misperception of D&D still held by the general public is a huge limiting factor on the hobby expanding and bringing in more players who might have the kind of social skills to form good gaming groups.

For example, the story about D&D from NPR this weekend (http://weekendamerica.publicradio.org/programs/index_20051112.html ) starts with the two hosts discussing the negatives of D&D without any kind of serious counterarguement or even basis in fact. From my experiences, most of the general public views D&D as "that devil worshipping game from the 80's" if they even know what it is.

What's my point? Hell if I know. I guess I don't have much to add other than it's an interesting discussion that I hope continues.

 

[eyebeams]

D&D does not really rely on players' social skills. D&D is a game that acts as a device to compensate for the quality of people's social skills by giving their conversations set agendas, rules and false personas that are more easily able to weather criticisms than the people playing them.

Good social skills enhance the game, but there's a reason why it's associated with social dysfunction, too. This is one of those things that I think people know, but are kind of afraid to come out and say. It's also the reason why recent moaning about "20 minutes of fun in 4 hours of play" is off base. The 3:40 of the game where people aren't doing pure play is is a big reason why the game exists. It provides a pretense for participants to get together.

This isn't to say that everyone who plays D&D is maladjusted, but D&D certainly doesn't require players to be well adjusted. In fact, it requires this less than many other pastimes.

 

[fusangite]

Eyebeams has said every single thing I would have said, and in way fewer words.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm back, and bumping this one up.

(shrugs)

I would say that people are complicated, interpersonal communication is complicated ... and we all know that: it's practically a cliche.
D&D is based on interpersonal communication and people, so D&D is complicated too. Heh. Anyone who has ever had the misfortune of playing a paladin will tell you how complicated it is!

 

[Pickaxe]

3 points

1) To paraphrase an acquaintance on why he tended to play basketball rather than softball:

"If you schedule a full court basketball game and 4 people show up, you can still play a game of two-on-two basketball. If you schedule a softball game and 4 people show up, you can still play a game of two-on-two basketball."

D&D is designed for multiple players. It's unlikely that someone will buy the latest edition of D&D without already having a group with which to play. Yes, Magic requires other players, but you can buy cards, build a deck, and show up at a tournament, whereas there are fewer venues where you can show up with a character and jump into an adventure. Chances are that the vast majority of us did not get into this hobby to do that sort of thing anyway.

2) From the opening to Tolstoy's Anna Karenina:

"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

In the D&D world it's:

"Happy gaming groups are all alike; every unhappy gaming group is unhappy in its own way."

Groups work, flourish, and endure when the participants get along, have fun, and don't have life-altering events that change their time commitments. Groups disintegrate for all sorts of reasons, because a lot of stars must align for them to succeed. I didn't play for about a decade, because I couldn't find a group.

3) My understanding is that TSR expanded its marketing during the second edition era. This resulted in things like replacing demons and devils with tanar'ri and baatezu, in order to avoid upsetting conservative parents. My feeling is that this hobby attracts pretty much all of the people who want to be in it. If they can find a group, they stay in it. I don't think there's a population out there saying, "I'd like to play D&D, but I just like Madden 2005 better." Just about everyone knows about D&D, and either it intrigues them as something fun to do or repels them as something that (ironically) antisocial uncool people do.

--Axe

 

[Hussar]

1) To paraphrase an acquaintance on why he tended to play basketball rather than softball:

"If you schedule a full court basketball game and 4 people show up, you can still play a game of two-on-two basketball. If you schedule a softball game and 4 people show up, you can still play a game of two-on-two basketball."

D&D is designed for multiple players. It's unlikely that someone will buy the latest edition of D&D without already having a group with which to play. Yes, Magic requires other players, but you can buy cards, build a deck, and show up at a tournament, whereas there are fewer venues where you can show up with a character and jump into an adventure. Chances are that the vast majority of us did not get into this hobby to do that sort of thing anyway.

2) From the opening to Tolstoy's Anna Karenina:

"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

In the D&D world it's:

"Happy gaming groups are all alike; every unhappy gaming group is unhappy in its own way."

Groups work, flourish, and endure when the participants get along, have fun, and don't have life-altering events that change their time commitments. Groups disintegrate for all sorts of reasons, because a lot of stars must align for them to succeed. I didn't play for about a decade, because I couldn't find a group.

3) My understanding is that TSR expanded its marketing during the second edition era. This resulted in things like replacing demons and devils with tanar'ri and baatezu, in order to avoid upsetting conservative parents. My feeling is that this hobby attracts pretty much all of the people who want to be in it. If they can find a group, they stay in it. I don't think there's a population out there saying, "I'd like to play D&D, but I just like Madden 2005 better." Just about everyone knows about D&D, and either it intrigues them as something fun to do or repels them as something that (ironically) antisocial uncool people do.

--Axe

^ wot he said.

 

[S'mon]

RPGs will always be a minority interest because they are primarily attractive to nerds, who tend to have difficulty with interpersonal communication and may even have autistic tendencies, yet RPGs require a high level of flexible (ie not structures/formalistic) interpersonal communication to function. So the people who actually play RPGs tend to be nerds who are good at interpersonal communication, a subset of an aready limited group.

I think that's what Edena was saying (I skipped most of it).

 

[S'mon]

I see that the elitist geek fallacy about roleplayers being more intelligent, personable, and hardworking than other people is still alive and well.

IMO we're more intelligent than most people, and more personable than other geeks. Hardworking... hmm, no.

 

[S'mon]

5. Oh, and the whole concept that we gamers are somehow brighter than the so-called common man is so much horsecrap.

You really think the average gamer IQ is 100? :\ I'd have thought more like 110 or so, around average college level. Or maybe you don't believe in Intelligence at all? That seems like not believing in Strength or Charisma.