If PCs are 1st level, why don't their 9th level patrons help?

[Storm Raven]

Chain of command, again, does this mean that when the PC becomes 12th level he’ll become a General in the Royal Army? Why are Generals expected to be better combat troops than their subordinates? Seems counter-intuitive to me.

It might mean that, provided the PC is willing to take on the reponsibilities of the post, which will greatly cut into his free time for things like adventuring.

And why are generals supposed to be better combat troops than their subordinates? It depends on the military force in question. In many more primitve organizations, leadership went to those who could prove their prowess in combat, regardless of their other qualifications. In other systems, leadership was determined by social rank. And so on.

So Alvin the Archmage is off in the Far Realms dealing with a planar incursion. Alone, is there no-one else who can deal with that threat. How many times is he called away by Planar crises? What happens if he fails? So Mr 12th level is away, hat about Mr 10th level, or Mr 8th level, or even scraping the bottom of the barrel Brian the Barely competent and his 2nd level band?

Because the threat or situation the PCs are dealing with is not assumed to be unique. Even if there are 50 adventuring bands of various levels out and about, there may be 75 situations that may need handling at any given point in time. Further, not every adventuing band is going to be available for adventuring all the time. What about the down time when the party is busy scribing spells, crafting magic items and dealing with other administrative issues. Now the 50 adventuing bands out and about drops a few more notches.

 

[Henry]

One small question, Grumpyoldman:

-Does everyone in the real world do everything with absolute logic or purpose behind it? Secondly, we're forgetting to actually figure the logic behind a D&D 9th level hero sending in the neophytes, and it's a modelling of the rules on reality.

Beyond just figuring in high-level types who (A) rest on their laurels, (B) are too busy, or (C) have other underlings, there's also the factor of figuring in the way experience is accrued in D&D. It's a real effect, and should be figured into the game world. In this case, the ONLY way to become the 9th level High priest is to gain experience. The only way to become the 10th level high priest is to gain experience, and he's not gaining ANY by clearing out the nest of kobolds. A character receives NO XP from a challenge 8 levels or lower, and minimal for a challenge 5 levels lower. Therefore, the 9th level group COULD go an mow over the challenge, but if they wish to plumb the deeper mysteries of their craft, WHY would they do so? He instead will gain XP from (A) managing the higher affairs of his dominion, (B) eliminating the rampaging dragon as a favor for a fellow noble, (C) facing a sticky diplomacy problem that only someone with 12 ranks of diplomacy can handle, etc.

The 9th level group ALSO knows that they won't be around forever. Either due to death, translation as a higher being, going on to bigger and better things, etc. They need replacements - the same reason Tommy Lee Jones was seeking out Will Smith in Men in Black. To gain expeience in D&D, there's ONLY ONE WAY - and that's to do the job, not to train in a classroom. So the "coming of age" test of cleaning the kobold lair will mean FAR more to a neophyte than to the leader. The job's still getting done, the steward is not slacking, but he's both doing what interests him (spending time becoming better at his craft), and also prepping the next generation for their trials to BECOME what he IS.

 

[WizarDru]

What's wrong with the 9th level cleric merely being extremely fat, lazy and ill-tempered? (Possibly even corrupt).

Villager: "Ogres are attacking the farmsteads!"

Cleric: "I can't be bothered. You deal with it."

I know this approach incensed my players at one stage, but it did make sense for the cleric!

Not to mention Lawfully Cowardly.

Not at all true. The difference between D&D and many other systems is that in D&D, a single 9th level character is equivalent to seventeen divisions and a support company of "starting" player characters. Perhaps not that much, but the disparity is enormous.

Methinks you overstate your case a mite (especially if bows are involved ), but your point is taken, to a degree.

However, there are plenty of reasons why a 9th level monk and 9th level cleric wouldn't go out and stop a bunch of kobolds and their BBEG. Not the least of which is the all-important concept, already mentioned, that they can't be everywhere at once, and they have duties.

Consider: I'm the 9th-level head abbot of the temple of the Sweeping Hand. I am responsible (I'm lawful, remember) for the care and training of 40 other monks. I need to safeguard the temples sacred scrolls, which contain the ancient knowledge of my order, including the dreaded Poison Soul Fist. I must lead each day's meditation, provide instruction, see to both the spiritual and operational requirements of the temple each day. I could go hunting those kobolds and their chief...on their home ground, away from my temple, foregoing my duties and leaving my monastery unguarded, all on the assumption that I'll be able to find the BBEG. Or I could task some young acolytes who show promise with the task.

Consider: I'm the head priest of the temple of Rao. I serve the god of Peace and thoughtful consideration. I have led a quiet life, and I safeguard the village. The people of the village look to me for spiritual guidance, and I have few skills in combat, especially in my older days. I am the only person in my order powerful enough and blessed enough to summon the power to revive the dead....dare I be foolhardy enough to risk myself in such a situation? What if I am slain, waylaid or even delayed, and prevented from helping some of my devout followers? What if someone died while I was away, and I returned to late to help them? I have many duties to the church that need fulfilling. There are daily temple duties, care of the flock, advising the town council and the local lord, and remaining ever vigilant against the kobolds and other threats. What if the local brigands learn that I've left the village, and decide to attack while I'm gone? What if I go the caves to find the BBEG and discover that it was a trap, and he's lead an attack on the village to plunder and burn, and then escape again?

There are many, many reasons why high-level NPCs might not participate in such an exercise. Even in a game where PCs never gain a great deal more combat prowess than they have at the beginning of the careers, such as in GURPS, there is still a question of Why Me? In a game where the players works for a large organization, there will be more powerful, better equipped and better connected people. And the question will rise again: why send me instead of twenty cyborgs? Why do I go, instead of Elmo the Assassain, who's better trained? Answering those questions, or changing the question itself, is the DM's job.

 

[Datt]

I think of it from a work prospective. The 9th level guy has seniority on the 1st level guy. He has gone and killed tens of kobolds in his day and he doesn't want to do it. And like Henry said how will the 1st level guy learn how to defend himself if he doesn't do it? If the world is to survive those 1st levels have to go out and fight so they can eventually become the 9th levels.

 

[S'mon]

You can make the temple head old & decrepit (St Con Dex 5-6) or even senile - making the Clr-9 have Wis 14 so he can't cast Raise Dead is a particularly cruel trick I like to play.
Personally IMC I would never have a 9th level character hiring 1st levellers to do anything the NPC perceived as 'important' (minor courier mission or vermin hunting, maybe) - a temple head could just as well be a low-level adept or somesuch in my book, and unless it's the High Temple of the War God, probably is.

 

[Darklone]

Of course, there's always the possibility to change to a more realistic campaign world where the 9th level dudes would go out and solve these problems... as long as the youngsters don't stumble into it accidently.

Or simply let the 9th level dude send the PCs after the two missing guys to check whether they stood at the temple to drink... have the PCs witness the tracks, send another boy NPC back to the monastery for help but make it clear that they have to urgently follow the tracks to save their buddies who will be killed/eaten soon.

 

[Umbran]

The difference between D&D and many other systems is that in D&D, a single 9th level character is equivalent to seventeen divisions and a support company of "starting" player characters. Perhaps not that much, but the disparity is enormous.

Yes, but the size of the disparity has nothing to do with the logic. Even if the power disparity is small, you still want to send the most competent people to handle important missions. In the real world, the power difference between a SWAT team member and John Q Public is small, but you don't call John when you've got a hostage situation, now do you?

The thing to note is that the higher level cleric and monk are rather in the position of being a Trek starship Captain. Sure, they're the most competent people around, and there's no question that they could handle the situation better than a 1st level grunt. But, what happens if those leaders die? Is there anyone else around with the experience to make decisions and new plans and act as final defense?

That's it, in a nutshell - you don't send your local community or oganizational leaders into danger.

The thing is that in almost all RPGs, no matter the power curve, you get into a position of leadership by first being a "field agent", and working your way up, so that your leaders are also the best at field work. In the real world, leaders are chosen for administrative skill, and tend to have little or no field experience.

 

[Arnwyn]

The 9th level patron is dealing with other matters that a high level character needs to attend to, whether that be running his temple/monestary or off dealing with a evil that the 1st levels could never hope to defeat.

Damn straight. I wonder why some people assume that the higher-level characters have all the time in the world? "Well, they're higher level, so they'll be ready, willing, and able to help us with this"... never mind that the higher level characters are actually busy.

It's all about priorities.

 

[Zerovoid]

When I've played a higher level cleric, I've aways been ready and willing to help. I raise the dead for free or at cost, heal people and cure disease and just ask that they pay what they can afford, etc... I've generally found the NPC clerics are much less helpful than I am to lower level NPC's, and I wonder how they can really claim that they are Good.

It seems unacceptable for a cleric of a good diety to send a bunch of newb's to save the town, and have them fail and hundreds of peasants get slaughtered, all because the cleric didn't feel like getting off his ass... That seems like a good way to lose his powers.

But, there are plenty of other reasons that people have suggested. I just don't like the idea that the cleric is lazy or just doesn't care.

 

[WizarDru]

It seems unacceptable for a cleric of a good diety to send a bunch of newb's to save the town, and have them fail and hundreds of peasants get slaughtered, all because the cleric didn't feel like getting off his ass... That seems like a good way to lose his powers.

But, there are plenty of other reasons that people have suggested. I just don't like the idea that the cleric is lazy or just doesn't care.

Of course, as I mentioned, he doesn't have to be lazy or cowardly...he could be just trying to balance the greater and lesser goods. There can be plenty of legitimate reasons such a character wouldn't go off and help the PCs or would ask the PCs to handle the problem for him.

A better contention might be asking why the leaders of the local organizations have to be a 9th level monk and cleric, and not a level 5 warrior/level 4 monk and 5th level Aristocrat/4th level cleric. Or, for that matter, why they couldn't be a monk 3 and cleric 3, for that matter.