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If you could put D&D into any other non middle ages genre, what would it be?

As far as running into a gatling gun, they fire 6,000 rounds per minute. If targeted on an individual, I doubt many PCs could survive a hundred ranged attacks per round. Which is one of the things I'd have to think about from an implementation standpoint.
FWIW, in one instance I statted a minigun as an Area Effect that attacked everyone/thing in its beaten zone.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Moderator
Staff member
Hmmm...

This:
I have also done some design work on a fantasy version of the Civil War, recast as the war between surface elves and Drow.
Plus this:
Personally, NPCs I run react in accord with the situation and their personalities, not what a system says is “safe” or not. If an NPC is running through gatling fire, it’s probably because he’s gotten a direct order or he’s desperate, not because “he knows he can’t be killed by it” unless that is the literal in campaign truth. Like, he’s a werewolf, and they didn’t load the gun with silver bullets.

And even then he may prefer to seek cover, because silver or not, those bullets may hurt.
D&D Elves or not, I find the idea of civil war soldiers firing munitions at 1 or more classic supernatural beings that they cannot actually kill somehow...compelling. Cinematic, even.

I may have to revisit the concept in earnest, either as the elfwar I posited, or as a “weird west” campaign.

Maybe I’ll yoink some stuff from other threads I’ve participated in, like this:
https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?256063-What-would-this-society-look-like
 
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Bawylie

A very OK person
I once had a dream about a D&D setting in the roaring twenties -- orc gangster, elven bard who runs a speakeasy, human private eye ex-paladin ("I knew she was trouble the minute she misty stepped into my office..."). I think I called it the "Roaring d20's" or something like that. It was totally epic.
I want to make this. Inter-war era noir-ish.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
A theme to this thread seems to be "D&D doesn't work with firearms because people won't fight because people won't approach combat the way I expect them to".

But end of the day I don't care what tactics my players use, it's up to them. I don't care if they play "the right way" as long as they're having fun.

As far as running into a gatling gun, they fire 6,000 rounds per minute. If targeted on an individual, I doubt many PCs could survive a hundred ranged attacks per round. Which is one of the things I'd have to think about from an implementation standpoint.
If we are discussing westerns, gatling guns fired 200-900 per minute or 20-90 per round, depending on caliber. 6000 is for modern versions, and would be 600 per round, not 100. :)
 

Dannyalcatraz

Moderator
Staff member
I once had a dream about a D&D setting in the roaring twenties -- orc gangster, elven bard who runs a speakeasy, human private eye ex-paladin ("I knew she was trouble the minute she misty stepped into my office..."). I think I called it the "Roaring d20's" or something like that. It was totally epic.
[video=youtube;3xruJ10C19U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xruJ10C19U[/video]
 

Paul Farquhar

Adventurer
It's simple and friendly, yes.


Some are, yes.

If you use your limited experience to dismiss *all* non-hp based games, however, you need to widen your horizons...
You persist in conflating no-hp with cover, when they are actually two separate and unrelated features. It's not hp, or the lack of them, that make games like Snapshot (which is basically X-Com) slow. It's cover and action points. Which doesn't necessarily make them bad games, but it doesn't leave time for role playing. Hence Snapshot (and Asteroid and Azhanti High Lightning, which used the same rules) where released as stand alone tactical boardgames in the Traveller universe, with the role playing game retaining a much simpler cover-free range band system for resolving combat. (no hp in either though).

Star Wars D6 has no hp (It had light, medium, serous and critical wounds if I remember correctly), and is faster and simpler than 5e. And player characters have plot armour that is at least as thick. I think it had rules for cover, but I didn't notice anyone using them.

Boot Hill is the game of the type you are thinking of. But I would NEVER play that as a role playing game. Because no matter how carefully you use cover, one unlucky dice roll and your character is permanently dead. So don't bother getting attached to them. The only sensible strategy in Boot Hill is to never get involved in combat at all. Which might be realistic, but isn't much fun.
 

IchneumonWasp

Explorer
I've played a game based on the French Revolution and the Enlightenment, where 'science and logic' were the discovery of magic as a science.

It was awesome.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
I might still let my cowboys wear armor because the world would be different with magic and dragons. Maybe instead of steel it's hardened giant spider silk, needs to be adamantium or even just say that the dwarves make really high quality steel.
But then your fighters don't need cover, which means you don't get the kind of movement expected from a Western.

Not saying it's wrong to have your gunslinger shrug off arrows as if he was Conan, only that MarkB is onto something with cover for those of us that wants a different experience from our Old West games than our Forgotten Realms ones...
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
You can, in D&D, at a point. That point is reasonably high level, and if you're willing to have your Conan be more the later REH version, in full armor.
If you're insisting on the oiled-up bodybuilder movie version, you'll really need a whole lot of hps, more than D&D typically gives you.
Please. D&D is not exactly low on the spectrum here. D&D is *definitely* a game constructed to allow the Barbarian to break cover and rush into melee.

Exactly the kind of behavior many people expect a firearms-enabled game to discourage, not encourage.

The difference is between hp-powered games, and D&D is the archetypical example, and between games where your health points increase much more slowly, if at all.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
A theme to this thread seems to be "D&D doesn't work with firearms because people won't fight because people won't approach combat the way I expect them to".

But end of the day I don't care what tactics my players use, it's up to them. I don't care if they play "the right way" as long as they're having fun.
Thank you for finally coming aboard.

Yes, at least I have never had the intention to call out your game as badwrongfun. Only explain to people why you might want to reconsider using hit points in a "modern" genre (with a focus on ranged fire, cover and tactics; as opposed to brawn and courage), and why this desire is not merely based in misunderstandings, double standards, or otherwise dismissable arguments.

Good luck with your game!
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
You persist in conflating no-hp with cover, when they are actually two separate and unrelated features.
I am saying hit points make cover less relevant and enables you take shortcuts to your target in ways you simply wouldn't without them. Hp is a kind of "portable cover" in how they both act to delay or prevent your death.

Still think I can't keep them separate?
 
Indeed, it can work very well that way. The Shadowrunesque game I ran made absolutely no changes to the base classes, only introducing some new optional subclasses and backgrounds.
Similarly the X-Crawl game that I ran some time ago. When the party engaged in adventures outside the confines of the dungeon, guns featured prominently, and required no house ruling or changes whatsoever (except deciding how machineguns worked).
 

Paul Farquhar

Adventurer
I am saying hit points make cover less relevant and enables you take shortcuts to your target in ways you simply wouldn't without them. Hp is a kind of "portable cover" in how they both act to delay or prevent your death.

Still think I can't keep them separate?
In my experience, cover acts more like AC than hp. You are either 100% safe or are at the mercy of a bad dice roll.

Games like Mass Effect and Shadowrun manage to combine hp with a cover based combat system, because cover and hp do not work the same.

So yes, I think you can't separate things that are actually quite different.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
FWIW, in one instance I statted a minigun as an Area Effect that attacked everyone/thing in its beaten zone.
Yeah, I'd probably do something similar - area effect in a cone maybe. The primary purpose of machine guns is primarily suppression fire.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
If we are discussing westerns, gatling guns fired 200-900 per minute or 20-90 per round, depending on caliber. 6000 is for modern versions, and would be 600 per round, not 100. :)
Still a lot (and I meant to go back and check to see if I had a typo). But my google-fu just failed me. Serves me right for just looking at the search page result and not clicking the link.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Still a lot (and I meant to go back and check to see if I had a typo). But my google-fu just failed me. Serves me right for just looking at the search page result and not clicking the link.
Oh, yeah. Still a ton of shots for sure.
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
Much like [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], I like Bronze Age, early Iron Age, and Antiquity, but I think that most setting writers have a shallow historical grasp of these time periods beyond their aesthetics.* ("Look, here's a guy dressed like a Spartan hoplite fighting a minotaur!") And that's always disappointing to me. The same is probably true for D&D's relation to the Middle Ages. And other settings/systems do a better job emulating these other historical societies. Harn or even Pendragon will probably be better choices for Middle Age questing. RuneQuest takes a Bronze Age worldview of the mythos and turns it into a cosmic reality. So I would probably, instead, prefer if D&D explored its own sense of D&D-style fantasy.

As such, I would like to see another setting like Dawnforge from the 3e era. Dawnforge was a setting about a world prior to the world that D&D frequently presumes: essentially D&D's "prequel setting." It presents a time before the drow became drow. It presents a world where there are no clerics but there are shamans of spirits and disciples of demigods who walk (or are found on) the earth. It was meant to be a mythic age for D&D as opposed to the mythic age for us. D&D could also draw on the lore for 4e's Points of Light setting with its Nerath and Arkosia Empires and such for such a "prequel setting." A world before its dungeons became ruined dungeons.

* Here I am also reminded of how by the time of Homer, people had clearly forgotten how the prior society of their stories engaged in warfare. Historians and literary scholars point to, for example, how Homer describes Achilles and other Hellenes in the Illiad riding their chariots to the front lines and then jumping off to fight one-on-one. But we know based upon how contemporaries to the Mycenaean Greeks in the Mediterranean that the chariots were used more like tanks. So the purpose of chariots in combat had been forgotten by Homer in the Greek Dark Ages. The aesthetics of chariots are a part of the story, but the aesthetic is divorced from its actual contextual use.
 
D&D is *definitely* a game constructed to allow the Barbarian to break cover and rush into melee.
I'm not saying it isn't able to allow a Barbarian to rush into melee even in the face of twanging crossbows or dragon's breath or the like - given the right sort of character, at the right levels, wearing the right armor, with the right good save. Just that: 1) it doesn't do it without some willingness to be flexible when it comes to visualizing the character and what hps mean in the story and 2) it wasn't designed explicitly to do that one thing and prevent doing anything else, rather, with the same degree of flexibility & imagination, you can use the hp mechanic to model the plot armor that crops up in wildly different genres. \
That's possible precisely because it is such an abstract mechanic.

Referee: Alright! Walk ten paces forward, dive for cover, then turn and shoot!
That's a European pistol duel. An Old West "Showdown" had no referee or seconds, and you faced eachother the whole time.

But that'd probably require it's own special rules in a 5e adaptation.


Yeah, I'd probably do something similar - area effect in a cone maybe. The primary purpose of machine guns is primarily suppression fire.
Yeah, it was the equivalent of a 5e cone, IIRC. Oh, also, the suppression fire comment just reminded me: the minigun (I think I mistakenly referred to it as a chaingun at the time) was an AE that attacked everyone in the area, /if it missed, it knocked you prone/. Not because it was shooting out bolas or anything, but because dropping prone is just a very plausible & genre-appropriate way of avoiding being hit by a hail of bullets.

There's probably a lot of things you could apply on a miss (or even a hit that does less than some threshold of current hps, perhaps), that way, to enforce genre conventions.
 
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Sacrosanct

Slayer of Keraptis
Just wanted to say thanks to some of you folks for bringing this thread back on track. Some of those ideas sound pretty cool. And I like the AoE affect for high RPM weapons. Gives me thoughts...
 

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