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If you could put D&D into any other non middle ages genre, what would it be?

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
I do, and it's the primary reason why I can't play 5E unless something has been done to address the healing rules.

When a goblin stabs you for 5 damage out of your 80hp, that's perfectly fine with me, because you're a mighty hero and you're wearing armor. Most armor is pretty good about dulling the impact of a sword. I can buy that it takes 16 hits before you've been battered into submission.

The issue is when you wake up in the morning, and the wounds which would have killed a lesser mortal have vanished entirely. That is making a mockery of the weapon.

Which is one of the reasons I use the alternate rest rules. Well, that and magic band-aids and salves because otherwise a lot of wounds would be permanent, which just doesn't fit with the number of encounters that adventurers normally face. A lot of wounds historically were fatal days or weeks after combat was over, which I just handle as my campaign world having the equivalent of magical penicillin.
 
Getting firearms to work mechanically isn't very hard. You could honestly treat them a lot like how crossbows are currently used in 5e. A goblin getting hit by a bullet and surviving can be treated much like how you would treat him getting hit by a crossbow bolt.

You have to remember that firearms were not at all advanced for a very long time, even in a Wild West setting Native Americans were incredibly dangerous until more advanced revolvers made it easier for American soldiers to fire weapons on horseback.
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
^a more accurate edit ;)

FWIW, I largely agree with you on everything else.
OK, fine, weapons. ;) Simple firearms rules do work just fine in D&D though, as mentioned above, and in many, many other threads. Realistic and detailed firearms rules mostly don't, neither for attack nor damage, but there are other system that do that well (or at least better), and if I wanted or needed hyper-realistic firearms rules I would look at one of those systems. I mostly don't want or need that rules set, but many people do, I'm sure. What I find a little boggling is how much time some people will spend complaining that a system that obviously wasn't designed to do a particular thing, doesn't do that particular thing particularly well.

Captain Obvious says Look elsewhere for your hyper-realistic firearms rules citizen, you won't find them here! Tra laa laaaa! Now it is time to fly again....
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
OK, fine, weapons. ;) Simple firearms rules do work just fine in D&D though, as mentioned above, and in many, many other threads. Realistic and detailed firearms rules mostly don't, neither for attack nor damage, but there are other system that do that well (or at least better), and if I wanted or needed hyper-realistic firearms rules I would look at one of those systems. I mostly don't want or need that rules set, but many people do, I'm sure. What I find a little boggling is how much time some people will spend complaining that a system that obviously wasn't designed to do a particular thing, doesn't do that particular thing particularly well.

Captain Obvious says Look elsewhere for your hyper-realistic firearms rules citizen, you won't find them here! Tra laa laaaa! Now it is time to fly again....

I agree but in all fairness, Captain Obvious could also point out that if you're looking for hyper-realistic simulation rules for just about anything you won't find them in D&D. Which doesn't make it a bad system because quite frequently reality sucks. :D
 

MarkB

Adventurer
D&D and firearms work fine until you circle back around to realistic damage. Most heroes in most action movies have a very D&D relationship with firearms. The bad guys don't, but that fits pretty well into D&D too. What D&D doesn't really do, not when you follow CR system anyway, and previous versions of the same, is deal with the concept of minions or henchmen, at least from a one-punch one-kill cinematic standpoint anyway. D&D can do that, but it takes an alternative approach to encounter design.
D&D 5e handles it just fine, even with pretty much standard encounter design. The whole point of Bounded Accuracy is that it keeps opponents of varied levels relevant in a fight - you can easily throw in a bunch of low-level minions alongside the tough bruisers, and it'll work fine in terms of both encounter design and XP budget.
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
Oh it handles it fine, but that's just not the way a lot of people run their games. The range of baddies tends to picked from a selection banded around the characters level. Not everyone throws in disposable one-hit minions specifically to have them act like one-hit minions. And when I say one hit, I mean 7th Sea one-hit, not, "I'll probably kill it with one hit". Anyway, we agree that D&D can do this, which was my point, we may disagree about how often it gets done, but that's not terribly important to the larger conversation.
 

MarkB

Adventurer
Oh it handles it fine, but that's just not the way a lot of people run their games. The range of baddies tends to picked from a selection banded around the characters level. Not everyone throws in disposable one-hit minions specifically to have them act like one-hit minions. And when I say one hit, I mean 7th Sea one-hit, not, "I'll probably kill it with one hit". Anyway, we agree that D&D can do this, which was my point, we may disagree about how often it gets done, but that's not terribly important to the larger conversation.
It's important in the sense that, if you want to adapt 5e to a genre where minions are expected, it has the tools for the job - and those tools aren't even crude or rudimentary.
 

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
Perhaps gritty is the default assumed tone for a Western.
Spaghetti Western, sure. Classical Western, not so much. They are too "Black and White" (in regards to morality, not a technicolor joke) and try to stay away from, or pretty up, the ugly bits of the Old West.
 

Laurefindel

Explorer
I do, and it's the primary reason why I can't play 5E unless something has been done to address the healing rules.

When a goblin stabs you for 5 damage out of your 80hp, that's perfectly fine with me, because you're a mighty hero and you're wearing armor. Most armor is pretty good about dulling the impact of a sword. I can buy that it takes 16 hits before you've been battered into submission.

The issue is when you wake up in the morning, and the wounds which would have killed a lesser mortal have vanished entirely. That is making a mockery of the weapon.
Alternatively, instead of altering the resting/healing rules, alter the conception of damage.

If a goblin stabbing for 5 points of damage would have killed a normal human(oid) being, or at least leave a wound that would take weeks to heal, but yet can be shrugged by a good night sleep, then it comes to reason that, logically, the character didn’t take that[/] wound. The character took damage which, IMO, must be seen as something else than wounds if one wants to spare their own willing suspension of disbelief (not gonna use the word “realism” here).

The character took damage and lost resources associate to its survival. Personally, I find it easier on my brain to see this resource - the character’s hit points - as anything but wounds that wouldn’t heal overnight.

i admit that this is easier to visualise in melee combat, whereas opponent slowly lose their edge as they exchange blows and parries, than with guns where the assumption is that either the bullet hit you, or it didn’t. In extremis dodges, quick parries, armour protection, magic charms; these work well in typical sword fight. You can make it work with guns too, but in my experience people have a harder time conceiving that a point blank “hit” with a 12-gauge gun can result in anything else but a very big (and probably very lethal) hole in your body.

so no, D&D doesn’t do high-noon western duels very well, but it does enable gun-blazing saloon shootouts without drastically reducing the probability of a hit to make the PC survive more than 1 round.
 
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77IM

Explorer!!!
This discussion, though, started when someone yelled "mockery".

My entire point is that unless you do *something*, whether to change the damage model (ie not use D&D) or the expectations, that's pretty much what you're gonna hear...
This. Some people find that attrition-based damage doesn't jive with their expectations of how firearms should work. (Which people? It doesn't matter. But there's enough of them that this debate keeps happening.) So you can either get rid of attrition-based damage (e.g. hit points) or try to set the tone/genre to one in which firearms aren't insta-kill.
 

Saelorn

Explorer
Alternatively, instead of altering the resting/healing rules, alter the conception of damage.
[...]
Personally, I find it easier on my brain to see this resource - the character’s hit points - as anything but wounds that wouldn’t heal overnight.
I'm not going to jump through any hoops to try and explain why a "hit" isn't really a hit, or why "cure wounds" isn't actually curing wounds. Nobody has time for that. If the game isn't doing what it says it's doing, according to its own terminology, then I'm going to fix the game so that it does.
 

Laurefindel

Explorer
I'm not going to jump through any hoops to try and explain why a "hit" isn't really a hit, or why "cure wounds" isn't actually curing wounds. Nobody has time for that. If the game isn't doing what it says it's doing, according to its own terminology, then I'm going to fix the game so that it does.
Fair enough! I agree about the terminology

some people do have time to do otherwise however :)
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
It's important in the sense that, if you want to adapt 5e to a genre where minions are expected, it has the tools for the job - and those tools aren't even crude or rudimentary.
Yeah, we agreed on that part, which is the important part. The part I wasn't sure we'd agree on is how often that tool gets used, or the degree to which people realize it's even a thing the system can manage (and manage well).

i guess what I was saying above is that when you color inside the lines of the CR system you don't get a picture of one-hit minions, or at least a lot of people overlook the possibility.
 

Eltab

Villager
Myths and legends: Greek/Roman myths of the mortal heroes (because gods are overrated and have too much plot armor), Biblical history and semi-history.
I'm not familiar enough with India- and China- based myths, but there are likely some good stories to build a plot around.
 

Derren

Villager
If that's the standard you're using (kill the enemy quickly before they close in), then D&D sucks at melee combat and can't capture historical melee combat as well. Heck, even heroic movie melee combat. Look at something like LotR with how fast they mow through orcs. That's not possible in D&D. Or historical combat where a single weapon strike took out an enemy soldier.

Goes back to my double standard. Implying D&D works good for melee but not ranged when you're holding a different set of standards to each. D&D works the same for melee and ranged. It's just that with one, you're willing to have suspense of disbelief, but not the other.
Because the entire point of ranged weapons is to kill the enemy before he can get close. But in D&D this is not possible and thus it creates very different combat scenarios than those in the real world which are also associated with more modern settings like westerns.
In D&D western most combats would devolve into melee fights with axes and knifes or close range gun-fu. But that is not how "western" worked both in real life and in fiction.

D&D combat also do not capture how medieval fights worked because of HP pools, but the fights were still melee, both in D&D, other medieval media and history, so there is much less of a disconnect there.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
Because the entire point of ranged weapons is to kill the enemy before he can get close. But in D&D this is not possible
… well, it's not easy to kill PCs and PC-level enemies before they close (though, in some eds, certainly quite possible, just not with mere weapons).
But it's quite easy to kill under-level enemies (or, in 4e, minions) before they close.
 

Beleriphon

Totally Awesome Pirate Brain
High Noon. They meet at the middle of the road, draw and shoot. And shoot. Shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, reload, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, reload, shoot, shoot and shoot and the loser drops dead has his 60 HP are out....

The D&D combat and HP system favors melee so much that any setting with primarily ranged weapons will look very strange, no classes or not.
Most westerns usually went with hero goes out at High Noon, and gets ambushed by the bad guy's gang who are hiding on roofs. Hero High Tails it to a handy barrel, and they proceed to have a ranged version of D&D Combat.
 
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MarkB

Adventurer
Because the entire point of ranged weapons is to kill the enemy before he can get close. But in D&D this is not possible and thus it creates very different combat scenarios than those in the real world which are also associated with more modern settings like westerns.
In D&D western most combats would devolve into melee fights with axes and knifes or close range gun-fu. But that is not how "western" worked both in real life and in fiction.
If both sides are using ranged weapons, then neither side is trying to get close. Instead, they're firing at each other from positions of cover in an extended ranged battle. Which is exactly like any typical Western movie.
 

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